line check please?

[Ironside]

standard?


PokerStars Game #42799298365: Tournament #306010386, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2010/04/17 18:15:43 WET [2010/04/17 13:15:43 ET]
Table '306010386 81' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: mee_tilt_jo (7740 in chips)
Seat 2: hobojim11247 (16037 in chips)
Seat 3: pok21KASS (7195 in chips)
Seat 4: Ironside (4925 in chips)
Seat 5: jostein333 (4380 in chips)
Seat 6: uaredead lol (9108 in chips)
Seat 7: DELTAS DAWG (4515 in chips)
Seat 8: StuPot.Sco (5295 in chips)
Seat 9: aizenxaim (8225 in chips)
pok21KASS: posts small blind 25
Ironside: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ironside [ ]
jostein333: folds
uaredead lol: folds
DELTAS DAWG: folds
StuPot.Sco: folds
aizenxaim: folds
mee_tilt_jo: folds
hobojim11247: calls 50
pok21KASS: folds
Ironside: raises 150 to 200
hobojim11247: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [ ]
Ironside: bets 300
hobojim11247: calls 300
*** TURN *** [ ] []
Ironside: checks
hobojim11247: bets 650
Ironside: calls 650
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
Ironside: checks
hobojim11247: bets 1050
Ironside: calls 1050

[the rage]

Good question Ironside. I really dont know the answer, so i'm hoping that some of the more experienced forum members will give some good feedback here. These seemingly trivial / staightforward situations are often the most confusing for me. I guess you are betting to protect your hand on the flop. I may have tried a check-raise there. Maybe bet again on the turn and fold to a re-raise. I would expect villian to re-raise on the turn with KJ. I would also expect him to raise pre-flop with AJ or any pair. Mind you, why would a guy with 16000 chips limp in on the button??
  The only type of hand, apart from a monster, that i can really see him limping with is something like 9T suited or 78 suited. As i've said i dont really get the limp though.
 In the heat of battle i would probably play it just the same as you, but looking at it now, i would say fold on the river. It's a tough one. GG.
 

[byronkincaid]

You will often find yourself with a hand that may or may not be the best, so it's not easy to decide if you should stay with it or let it go. As an example, let's say you're in the Big Blind of a single-table NLHE tournament with K-J suited and everyone has folded to the Button who makes a 3-times the Big Blind raise. The Small Blind calls and, because you're getting odds of 3.5 to 1, you call. (If the BB is $100 and the SB is $50, a 3x raise is $300; the SB puts in $250, so the pot is now $700 and you must bet $200.) Let's say the flop comes J,7,5 "rainbow" (all different suits) and the Button bets $500 into the what-is-now $900 pot. The Small Blind folds and it's now up to you; you'll need to make a $500 call into a $1400 pot, so you're getting some decent pot odds. However, if you do call, what have you learned about you opponent's hand? Basically nothing, which is not the way you want it to be when you're putting your $$$ to risk, although it's certainly not the worst call you'll ever make.

But a better idea is to raise your opponent's bet to $1000. My reasoning here is: (A) players often raise - quite properly - on the button with relatively weak hands, like 10-J, A-x or a low pair and (B) after such a raise, many will make a "continuation" bet, whether or not the flop helped them. If you do raise $1000, the pot is now $2400 and your opponent will have to bet $500 to stay in the hand, which is nearly 5 to 1 pot odds. That might induce a call if s/he has an open-ended Straight draw, but it's not enough if s/he has an inside Straight draw (6 to 1 is the proper odds for that) or a Flush draw, which will require runner, runner suited cards (because the flop was of all different suits.) Of course, your opponent could have many other hands: Jack with a higher or lower kicker, two-pair, an overpair, such as Q-Q up to A-A, a pair of or or even a pair of Jacks. If he calls your raise, you have to at least suspect a hand like that, but if he re-raises you, the probability of a "set" (trips) is increased. As frightening as that is, your opponent has to also begin thinking that you may have a set or any other hand mentioned above, which is why a re-raise is giving you important information. Your raise is basically saying, "I have two-pair, a set or overpair" and your opponent's re-raise is saying, "I know you have two-pair, a set or an overpair and it doesn't scare me."

[the rage]

one of my concerns about the line that you took Ironside was that, by playing the hand quite passively, you dont really know where you stand and you face having to call a riiver bet for a serious amount of your stack. The viliain may have nothing but he is just as likely to be value betting a hand that's beating you. I guess that's what Byron was getting at in his post.
 just another thought, in my previous post, i mentioned about the range of hands that the button might be limping with. In a recent online tournament that i was playing in i was down to the last four, in second position. the blinds were something like 500 /1000. I was on the big blind with about 25000. The chip leader, on the button with about 37000, limps in. I have 84 off, so i see the flop. The flop comes T84 rainbow. I check raise the button. The chips all go in and i'm knocked out by a set of eights. (we both have a full house on the turn). I was just curious about the merits of, basically, set mining from the button or similar position. In your hand Ironside, you are both deepstacked, so maybe the button thinks that, rather than take the blinds, i'll just limp in with my 33, 88, JJ or whatever and then try and play for stacks with a fairly well disguised set. So maybe your passive play could be protecting your tournament survival. Who knows. If anyone could give me any tips on the pros and cons of button limping i would appreciate them.
 Sorry if i seem to keep hijacking your posts Ironside but they seem to leave me with more questions than answers. Good stuff.

[MANTIS01]

Let's inject a bit of sense into proceedings. You play the hand fine until the river Iron. On the river the way the hand plays out list everything you beat. That list will be very small. 

[the rage]

were my posts really that senseless? As i said in my first post, i'm really not sure of the best way to play the hand, but i thought i'd post my thoughts anyway. I did come to the conclusion that when villiain bets the river Ironside isn't beating much, apart from a total bluff. I raised the point about the button limp, because having been knocked out of a comp recently by a button limper, i was interested to hear what other, more experienced players feel about the strategy of limping on the button with hands such as medium pocket pairs. I don't know if that was the case here, but, i personally tend to be a little wary when a big stack limps in on the button.

[railtard1]

I think your line is fine tbh. I prob play the same way. Obv the only decision is the river. The guy has 16k at 25/50, so assuming he is splashing around a bit.. i think calling the river is fine.

[outragous76]

at these stakes yo often see people call the flop after missing with AK

turn fine

i dont mind the call on the river like 25% of the time (mainly villain dpendant) but i am mostly folding

[GreekStein]

meh his river sizing makes me think he's got it. I'd be a little happier calling if he bet a little more even though that may seem silly.

Still don't mind a call here. Often see villain doing weird stuff or even betting AJ/J10/JQ type hands here too.

[the rage]

shame it was cancelled Mr Ironside. I was looking forward to pitting my wits against you. Anyone got any thoughts on button limping?

[MANTIS01]

Ref villain splashing around on the river as reason to call. He limps the button from a big stack, flats the raise and then flats the c-bet. With the absence of any history this passive line is reason enough to think he's not using his stack that way imo. Ref button limping the rage, we are playing 25/50 9-handed here and the eg you quoted was 500/1000 4-handed so the two spots are like night and day. There are different reasons for button limping and they are situation specific.

[Ironside]

shame it was cancelled Mr Ironside. I was looking forward to pitting my wits against you. Anyone got any thoughts on button limping?

what was cancelled


hand in question villian flopped top 2

[the rage]

Ok Ta Mantis. I appreciate that my example of button limping was in a somewhat different scenario, but i was just interested to hear peoples ideas on the merits, or otherwise, of open limping from the button, or similar. The game was the AWOP sat Ironside. ta for posting the hand.