wsop $5k 6max - QQ utg+1

[NigDawG]

posting this primarily asking about turn and river decisions because these were the streets which bothered me the most and tbh aren't spots which i find myself in very often so i'm looking to improve in

my seat draw is horrible with two young guys with big stacks on my direct left playing super aggressive, opening every hand and 3betting/4betting very frequently.

villain in question 3bet the first 5 hands back from the break (showed QQ twice and AA once) and was laughing about how hot he was running. he then flatted my button open with 99 and won the pot at showdown and laughed at how he could of 3bet again but thought i would get fed up of the 3bets and shove (lol he reads good). since then he has 3bet and called raises but not shown anything.

on my direct right i have a french fish who has been open limping alot and raising in late position. he has snap folded (and clearly frustrated) to 3bets and also to 4bets 100% of the time so far he has 3bet (maybe 4 or 5 times each in the 75 mins i've been at the table). the other two players are playing very tight.

i initially opened quite a bit when i joined the table but the two aggro guy's made my life hell by 3betting or flatting every time so i decided to tighten up. i have not once defended to a 3bet as of yet. i joined the table with a 23k stack and i couldn't win a pot in the first 60 mins and chipped down to 14k. in the last 15 mins i won a decent pot by 3betting all in on the turn of   with villain folding.



blinds 100/200/25 french fish opens utg to 550 out of 8k stack, utg+1 i flat out of 21k stack with   , aggro button 3bets to 1800 out of 50k stack. folds to me i call.

flop :  

i check, villian bets 2200, i call

turn :  

i check, villian bets 3600, i call (?)

river :  

i check, villian bets 7800, hero ?



i called fairly quickly both times around preflop, again fairly quickly on the flop, but took maybe 30-45 seconds deliberating on the turn. villain was generally fast in his timing (as always) however the way he put the chips into the pot on every street post flop was different to the way he had bet his chips at any point before this. usually he just threw the raise or call out in front of him (and he did this preflop in this instance) but flop, turn and river he placed the chips in a neat horizontal line in front of him. i had not seen this before ever from him but its possible i had just not noticed or indeed that he is doing it on purpose.

[DMorgan]

Some pretty close spots imo. Preflop if the french guy has been getting really irritated with 3bets then I really like a 3bet here. If he's bad he can definitely decide to just get it in with a hand like 77/AQ and if you 3bet smallish to say 1400 he could even spaz out and shove with 100% of his opening range. You don't specify but I'm assuming that he's been pretty passive, in which case its gunna be harder to stack him when he's got 7x pot behind, so imo this should be a 3bet. Thats a good discussion to have in itself I think, but anyway moving on...

When the button 3bets, he's obv doing this pretty wide. That would lean us more towards just a call but I think 4betting is a viable option. Theres now 3350 in the pot so theres some value in picking that up, but I reckon the main argument in favour of 4betting is that it'd be pretty disastrous not to stack hands like 99-JJ here. 4betting is also definitely gunna confuse the guy. Its a really strange preflop line and it sounds like he's gunna be aware that you know that he can make this play with a pretty wide range. Also with the table having seen a ton of 3 and 4bets, I don't think that this is really gunna telegraph as much strength as you would expect it to. Overall I think its pretty close and can go either way

Flop I think its a pretty standard call. If you c/r the flop he might even fold a hand like AT on that board, its pretty tough for him to continue with much that we beat and he obv 3bet jams all of his big draws and sets and we're obv pretty crushed against that range.

Turn is a pretty funky bet, just over a third of the pot which obv on level 1 looks like he doesn't want you to fold anything, but I just think that his range at this point has so many draws that you can't fold. You've also really under-repped your hand to this point and your line looks pretty weak. Right now I think your hand looks a lot like 99, T9, 89 that have a tough time calling 3 streets. I think he's still firing all of his draws but mainly because he wants to keep the lead in the hand. A lot of people really don't like checking back here because it gives their river bet if they miss a whole lot less credibility. At this point I'm expecting him to have a decent draw and to fire again on the river whether he hits it or not, so I like calling here to induce the river bluff.

Since I liked calling turn to induce the river bluff I'm obv snapping this river with QQ.

Interesting hand for sure, definitely interested to see the results after a few more replies

[MC]

4-bet QQ pf against said Villain's squeeze?

I like the check-call line, but don't see how we can do anything other than call the river if that's the line we are taking, and every draw missed. His range is pretty polarised to nuts or air, but I would think he has air enough of the time to call here...

[action man]

4-bet QQ pf against said Villain's squeeze?

I like the check-call line, but don't see how we can do anything other than call the river if that's the line we are taking, and every draw missed. His range is pretty polarised to nuts or air, but I would think he has air enough of the time to call here...

not polarised to nuts or air at all imo. AA/KK take same line imo, and are villains most likely holding given size of 3bet pre

[George2Loose]

4-bet QQ pf against said Villain's squeeze?

I like the check-call line, but don't see how we can do anything other than call the river if that's the line we are taking, and every draw missed. His range is pretty polarised to nuts or air, but I would think he has air enough of the time to call here...

not polarised to nuts or air at all imo. AA/KK take same line imo, and are villains most likely holding given size of 3bet pre

Yeh he deffo value betting better pairs. Think this is a really tough spot. Your hand is under repped and looks like a draw on the other hand if you did have 2 overs flush draw/combo draw on flop you're probably raising to get it in.

I probably sigh call because my hand is so under repped but wouldn't be surprised to see him flip KK/AA.

[MC]

4-bet QQ pf against said Villain's squeeze?

I like the check-call line, but don't see how we can do anything other than call the river if that's the line we are taking, and every draw missed. His range is pretty polarised to nuts or air, but I would think he has air enough of the time to call here...

not polarised to nuts or air at all imo. AA/KK take same line imo, and are villains most likely holding given size of 3bet pre

True...I didn't mean literal nuts, I meant effective nuts, but you're right AA/KK def plausible...still perhaps he bets JJ on this premise...

[the rage]

Looks like a very tough situation. Thanks for posting. Apart from 4 betting pre fop, which gets rid of some of the hands that go on to out-draw you, i can't see a lot that you can do to improve the situation. I would think that most other options would end up with you getting them all in against a hand that beats you, or getting hands that you beat to fold.
 There is some chance that he's hit a straight or a set on the turn, but, on balance after calling the flop and the turn and seeing very good turn and river cards, i think a call on the river would be the correct decision. Obviously vilian will show up with a hand that beats you quite often but i think the odds of just over 2 / 1 are good enough to justify a call.

[action man]

villain is aware that river card is a bad one for him to fire the third.

[pleno1]

villain is aware that river card is a bad one for him to fire the third.

we could easily have xxhh though. he may check behind with showdown value though i guess.

[DMorgan]

villain is aware that river card is a bad one for him to fire the third.

Equally villain is aware that our range looks pretty weak which could easily lead him to the conclusion that our range is skewed towards draws that have missed?

His river betsize is pretty consistent with this, he bets 7.8 into 16.2k, big enough that he cannot be bluff shoved on (unless we do a luckexpress: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXa9bLLLD4Q) and small enough to get a great price on the bluff because he thinks that he's gunna get a fold a high %age of the time

[the rage]

I failed my arithmatic test earlier. With odds of  3 / 1 i'm even more inclined to make the call. When i tried to assign approximate percentages to the villians possible starting hands i came to the conclusion that hero's chances of winning were about 30 % at worst.
  Is it wrong for me to base so much emphasis on the pot odds to make my choice in this scenario? If villian believes that we do actually have a hand to pay him off with, would he not be betting a lot more on the river quite often in order to make us think that he has a drawing hand that missed as well as to actually win more chips. I think he would have been a bit greedier on the river with the nuts, definitely a chance of AA or KK though. Still a CALL for me.

[NigDawG]

my thinking pre was that stack sizes were pretty bad for me to

a) 3bet the utg from utg+1
b) 4bet the button to induce action from worse

i do take your point that french fishy might jam in frustration if i 3bet but was thinking i'd rather play a big pot vs one of the guys behind me (who's late position squeeze range is super wide) than just try to the stack the utg guy.

on the turn i was confused by his small bet since the board was so draw heavy it didn't really make sense when he could just check back his marginals. i ended up going with the thought that he was trying to set up a pot-ish sized bluff shove on the river and was thus planning to check/call a shove on river when i called the turn.....

only he didn't shove lol. which confused me again

[buzzharvey22]

my thinking pre was that stack sizes were pretty bad for me to

a) 3bet the utg from utg+1
b) 4bet the button to induce action from worse

yer if ur 4 betting then i guess ur gunna be folding to a 5 bet unless ur good at 2 outers.

pretty horrible situation to be in, and think i would find a fold but not sure wether id find it on turn or river.

[action man]

my thinking pre was that stack sizes were pretty bad for me to

a) 3bet the utg from utg+1
b) 4bet the button to induce action from worse

yer if ur 4 betting then i guess ur gunna be folding to a 5 bet unless ur good at 2 outers.

pretty horrible situation to be in, and think i would find a fold but not sure wether id find it on turn or river.

yh u could 4b fold unless your good at liking money.

[buzzharvey22]

my thinking pre was that stack sizes were pretty bad for me to

a) 3bet the utg from utg+1
b) 4bet the button to induce action from worse

yer if ur 4 betting then i guess ur gunna be folding to a 5 bet unless ur good at 2 outers.

pretty horrible situation to be in, and think i would find a fold but not sure wether id find it on turn or river.

yh u could 4b fold unless your good at liking money.

did u like my stop and go on full 2nyt with k9 after i announced it to the table?