too thin?

[Free_Rollin]

Dont think you're hand is strong enough to bet/call river even if he is spewy... seems like a good spot to check and let him bluff at you imo

I think in a spot like this, it's all about relative hand strength rather than absolute hand strength. Even though Chris' hand isn't that strong, it's strong enough to be beating all random bluffs.


Having thought about this hand more, I keep going back to why villain bet small on the turn. If the only thing Chris is beating is bluffs on the river when villain raises all in, then does villain really play an air ball like this on the turn? Does he really bet that small on the turn? Isn't villain more likely to bet strong with air balls and draws? I doubt villain bet/calls on the turn with air here like this, and so now even though I liked Chris' play earlier to induce, I think river now is a fold.

[MANTIS01]

i don't get b) and if i don't get it, i'm not sure villain gets it. are you saying you wouldn't call the 3 bet with KQ, JQ? from your history you have called both his previous 3 bets and checked down with nothing, so from his POV you can't have air here right, so he must have something

i don't get this, plz explain

I am assuming OP would never raise the turn with Qx, as he wouldn't turn qx into a bluff in this spot. Instead would call down.

I agree with your point generally though that I think we are giving villian probably a bit too much credit for being good at hand reading. Therefore is probs not thinking on the same level we are.

I agree with this point. Villain starts the day with some bizarre plays so I think we can use that info to take it down a few levels.

The previous hands played between these two have seen hero take a passive line through the streets. Here hero is c-raising turn and leading river, so generally i'd say villain thinks hero is stronger than before. Why would villain be so sure hero is out of line? By contrast villain has had his spewy aggro moments early in a hand, but vs hero he's been solid/passive down the streets. While his general aggro image can be applied to the river to make a case for being good I don't see proper evidence the guy spews rivers. Looks like a set.

[doubleup]

Don't think that villains hand reading skills are required, he just needs to be planning to push the river after your small c-raise on the turn. 

I suppose he might have KK, JJ, or something like that.  What did you put him on?

[T_Mar]

Dont think you're hand is strong enough to bet/call river even if he is spewy... seems like a good spot to check and let him bluff at you imo

I think in a spot like this, it's all about relative hand strength rather than absolute hand strength. Even though Chris' hand isn't that strong, it's strong enough to be beating all random bluffs.


Having thought about this hand more, I keep going back to why villain bet small on the turn. If the only thing Chris is beating is bluffs on the river when villain raises all in, then does villain really play an air ball like this on the turn? Does he really bet that small on the turn? Isn't villain more likely to bet strong with air balls and draws? I doubt villain bet/calls on the turn with air here like this, and so now even though I liked Chris' play earlier to induce, I think river now is a fold.

OK, in relation to the villians likely shoving range when op leads river I dont think our hand is strong enough to call, however checking allows him to fire all those airballs which we do relatively well against

[Free_Rollin]

Dont think you're hand is strong enough to bet/call river even if he is spewy... seems like a good spot to check and let him bluff at you imo

I think in a spot like this, it's all about relative hand strength rather than absolute hand strength. Even though Chris' hand isn't that strong, it's strong enough to be beating all random bluffs.


Having thought about this hand more, I keep going back to why villain bet small on the turn. If the only thing Chris is beating is bluffs on the river when villain raises all in, then does villain really play an air ball like this on the turn? Does he really bet that small on the turn? Isn't villain more likely to bet strong with air balls and draws? I doubt villain bet/calls on the turn with air here like this, and so now even though I liked Chris' play earlier to induce, I think river now is a fold.

OK, in relation to the villians likely shoving range when op leads river I dont think our hand is strong enough to call, however checking allows him to fire all those airballs which we do relatively well against

I'm not saying check-calling might not be the best option. I'm just saying, if a villain has spew tendancies, then by us betting, it allows us to get more from him. It's like a level 2 post oak bluff. I've used it at times, and it works well. Not sure if this is what Chris was trying to do, but it's a nice little play nonetheless.

[Amatay]

I think this deep I prefer making the decision to 4b/f, 4b/c or straight up fold preflop to avoid these spots. ATs is never gonna be easy to play OOP if you don't flop a flush draw which you're only 1/6 to do right?

not sure about thiis. Turning A10 into a bluff after OP has had a propensity to spew (i.e Q2 shove hand) What if we 4 bet pre like u suggest and he cold calls and the flops comes the same AQx and we have the same difficult spot oop with a slight larger pot. I like the hand as played accept im c/c turn and riv

[GreekStein]

I think this deep I prefer making the decision to 4b/f, 4b/c or straight up fold preflop to avoid these spots. ATs is never gonna be easy to play OOP if you don't flop a flush draw which you're only 1/6 to do right?

not sure about thiis. Turning A10 into a bluff after OP has had a propensity to spew (i.e Q2 shove hand) What if we 4 bet pre like u suggest and he cold calls and the flops comes the same AQx and we have the same difficult spot oop with a slight larger pot. I like the hand as played accept im c/c turn and riv

LOL def someone else using amatay's acct. No way did he just use 'propensity'.

[Amatay]

I think this deep I prefer making the decision to 4b/f, 4b/c or straight up fold preflop to avoid these spots. ATs is never gonna be easy to play OOP if you don't flop a flush draw which you're only 1/6 to do right?

not sure about thiis. Turning A10 into a bluff after OP has had a propensity to spew (i.e Q2 shove hand) What if we 4 bet pre like u suggest and he cold calls and the flops comes the same AQx and we have the same difficult spot oop with a slight larger pot. I like the hand as played accept im c/c turn and riv

LOL def someone else using amatay's acct. No way did he just use 'propensity'.

Ha, i'm an educated man Costas. Amatay BSc (HONS), MSc, CertEd. Thats 16 letters after my name son, whereas i'm guessing you just have the four?? Cos Papetits, ****

[GreekStein]

I think this deep I prefer making the decision to 4b/f, 4b/c or straight up fold preflop to avoid these spots. ATs is never gonna be easy to play OOP if you don't flop a flush draw which you're only 1/6 to do right?

not sure about thiis. Turning A10 into a bluff after OP has had a propensity to spew (i.e Q2 shove hand) What if we 4 bet pre like u suggest and he cold calls and the flops comes the same AQx and we have the same difficult spot oop with a slight larger pot. I like the hand as played accept im c/c turn and riv

LOL def someone else using amatay's acct. No way did he just use 'propensity'.

Ha, i'm an educated man Costas. Amatay BSc (HONS), MSc, CertEd. Thats 16 letters after my name son, whereas i'm guessing you just have the four?? Cos Papetits, ****

Nearly fell for that til I realised NO educated man calls that a breakfast.

[810ofclubs]

i think u are my hero for playing it this way, deffo a sick induce. nhnh

[Murph1984]

I think this deep I prefer making the decision to 4b/f, 4b/c or straight up fold preflop to avoid these spots. ATs is never gonna be easy to play OOP if you don't flop a flush draw which you're only 1/6 to do right?

not sure about thiis. Turning A10 into a bluff after OP has had a propensity to spew (i.e Q2 shove hand) What if we 4 bet pre like u suggest and he cold calls and the flops comes the same AQx and we have the same difficult spot oop with a slight larger pot. I like the hand as played accept im c/c turn and riv

LOL def someone else using amatay's acct. No way did he just use 'propensity'.

Look at the bolded in his quote,was def him.

Do I get some kind of award for spotting a grammatical error that James Keys missed?

[Skgv]

dying to know what the guy had now after all of this! help me relieve the frustration !

[NigDawG]

dying to know what the guy had now after all of this! help me relieve the frustration !

i called and he showed Q9o lol

[SuuPRlim]

fwiw I kinda like the turn play vs said villain.

I like it even more followed by a river c/call personally.