200plo Rough Spot DEEP

[SuuPRlim]

As a background, very capable, very agressive REG on ftp, we have a ton of history (over 9k hands at this point) but hadnt played for over 7 months, we were 4tabling and I think I was winning about $600 at this point but we were playing 1/2 200bbs so he wouldnt be tilting or anything. about 20mins into the session.


***** Hand History for Game 17285717944 ***** (Full Tilt)
$200.00 USD PL Omaha - Saturday, May 01, 08:07:26 ET 2010
Table Maxwell (heads up deep) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: lildavefish ( $822.00 USD )
Seat 2: ShipItToPapa ( $823.50 USD )
lildavefish posts small blind [$1.00 USD].
ShipItToPapa posts big blind [$2.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lildavefish [   ]
lildavefish raises [$5.00 USD]
ShipItToPapa raises [$8.00 USD]
lildavefish raises [$16.00 USD]
ShipItToPapa calls [$12.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
ShipItToPapa checks
lildavefish bets [$22.00 USD]
ShipItToPapa raises [$110.00 USD]
lildavefish calls [$88.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
ShipItToPapa bets [$225.00 USD]
lildavefish

Interested to know thoughts on pre-flop sizing, and the line you take from the flop.

Thanks.

[George2Loose]

I don't play omaha much but this is a super tough spot. I mean when you call the flop re raise isn't your hand pretty much face up? ie: You have a 9 obv you could have kings. If you've played so many hands against him does he like to make bluffs on dry boards such as this one? Would he flat pre with kings or put another bet in pre?

[GreekStein]

Dirty spot.

If the turn is a 7 or a 10 what do u dave?

[SuuPRlim]

Dirty spot.

If the turn is a 7 or a 10 what do u dave?

abs no idea lol - what do you think?

George he could defo flat pre with KKxx combos - id never seen him min preflop before, so i was thinking it was probs a misclick, but as i say he is v gd and I these baords are cool to c/raise light HU in plo....but he doesn't actually c/raise that many flops, we played another hand once i always remember playing 100bbs deep he  c/raised a 335 baord with 6678 and bdoor fd then barreled turn and river ful near full pot after he bricks (hand was memerable cos I had AA33 lol)

But I know he'd take this line for value aswel

[George2Loose]

Could he have a worse 9 on the flop and now be barrelling it for value on the turn? What worse hands do you call with? U hero here with just a king? I think I call although like I say your hand is face up.

This is why I play with just two cards

[SuuPRlim]

Could he have a worse 9 on the flop and now be barrelling it for value on the turn? What worse hands do you call with? U hero here with just a king? I think I call although like I say your hand is face up.

This is why I play with just two cards

would you call any river or fold on certain rivers?

[GreekStein]

This is a really tough one for any of us to answer better than you because of the dynamic you have with the guy after x amount of hands.

He's got me confused because if he's bluffing his sizing is kinda bad and if he's got it I would expect him to bet a tad less.

Dirty spot.

If the turn is a 7 or a 10 what do u dave?

abs no idea lol - what do you think?

George he could defo flat pre with KKxx combos - id never seen him min preflop before, so i was thinking it was probs a misclick, but as i say he is v gd and I these baords are cool to c/raise light HU in plo....but he doesn't actually c/raise that many flops, we played another hand once i always remember playing 100bbs deep he  c/raised a 335 baord with 6678 and bdoor fd then barreled turn and river ful near full pot after he bricks (hand was memerable cos I had AA33 lol)

But I know he'd take this line for value aswel

If the turn is a 7 I don't fold.

The 8 and 10 are puke cards because if he does have a 9 I'd expect him to have these with them.

Think I call turn and pass river. Not sure though.

sdgjshkdghso'pfhdfh

[SuuPRlim]

This is a really tough one for any of us to answer better than you because of the dynamic you have with the guy after x amount of hands.

He's got me confused because if he's bluffing his sizing is kinda bad and if he's got it I would expect him to bet a tad less.

Dirty spot.

If the turn is a 7 or a 10 what do u dave?

abs no idea lol - what do you think?

George he could defo flat pre with KKxx combos - id never seen him min preflop before, so i was thinking it was probs a misclick, but as i say he is v gd and I these baords are cool to c/raise light HU in plo....but he doesn't actually c/raise that many flops, we played another hand once i always remember playing 100bbs deep he  c/raised a 335 baord with 6678 and bdoor fd then barreled turn and river ful near full pot after he bricks (hand was memerable cos I had AA33 lol)

But I know he'd take this line for value aswel

If the turn is a 7 I don't fold.

The 8 and 10 are puke cards because if he does have a 9 I'd expect him to have these with them.

Think I call turn and pass river. Not sure though.

sdgjshkdghso'pfhdfh

I agree its just a totally bizarre spot to be bluffing or completely airballing - it was slightly out of character for him aswel because he is extremely prone to pretty much exactly half pot bets on these kind of textures, so it makes no sense for him to pot pot with air, and in a way seems odd to with full as well. One massive though In my head at the time was that he might have a hand like JQKT and he's trying to barrel me off AA or the exact hand I have. but then unless there badugi he'd probs 5ball a hand like that given that I often small 4bet decent gapped rundowns and hands similar to this pre-flop, but this defo puts more in my percieved range and he know's i hate folding so it seems to make a bluff all the less feesible.

Cos you reckon I can call the turn and fold to a pot bet on the river when its an offsuit 2 or something?

[Woodsey]

Farking hell what a nightmare. I reckon because we are playing so deep I have to fold the turn unless we fill up. Its hard to think what he's raising with on the flop that doesn't beat you apart from a worse 9, but I ain't good enough to fold to the flop raise..................

[SuuPRlim]

Farking hell what a nightmare. I reckon because we are playing so deep I have to fold the turn unless we fill up. Its hard to think what he's raising with on the flop that doesn't beat you apart from a worse 9, but I ain't good enough to fold to the flop raise..................

Ye i think folding the flop is bad....true we beat like pretty much nothing in his value range

[GreekStein]

This is a really tough one for any of us to answer better than you because of the dynamic you have with the guy after x amount of hands.

He's got me confused because if he's bluffing his sizing is kinda bad and if he's got it I would expect him to bet a tad less.

Dirty spot.

If the turn is a 7 or a 10 what do u dave?

abs no idea lol - what do you think?

George he could defo flat pre with KKxx combos - id never seen him min preflop before, so i was thinking it was probs a misclick, but as i say he is v gd and I these baords are cool to c/raise light HU in plo....but he doesn't actually c/raise that many flops, we played another hand once i always remember playing 100bbs deep he  c/raised a 335 baord with 6678 and bdoor fd then barreled turn and river ful near full pot after he bricks (hand was memerable cos I had AA33 lol)

But I know he'd take this line for value aswel

If the turn is a 7 I don't fold.

The 8 and 10 are puke cards because if he does have a 9 I'd expect him to have these with them.

Think I call turn and pass river. Not sure though.

sdgjshkdghso'pfhdfh

I agree its just a totally bizarre spot to be bluffing or completely airballing - it was slightly out of character for him aswel because he is extremely prone to pretty much exactly half pot bets on these kind of textures, so it makes no sense for him to pot pot with air, and in a way seems odd to with full as well. One massive though In my head at the time was that he might have a hand like JQKT and he's trying to barrel me off AA or the exact hand I have. but then unless there badugi he'd probs 5ball a hand like that given that I often small 4bet decent gapped rundowns and hands similar to this pre-flop, but this defo puts more in my percieved range and he know's i hate folding so it seems to make a bluff all the less feesible.

Cos you reckon I can call the turn and fold to a pot bet on the river when its an offsuit 2 or something?

yeah. Think he's a very sick man if he tries to bluff river as it looks like you've made your river decision on the turn.

[DMorgan]

definitely a sick spot, closer to a fold than a ship on the turn for sure but I think we can flat here with 500 behind. I dunno, I guess I just hate folding. Flatting turn and folding blank rivers seems pretty spewy as we're effectively calling the turn to try and bink a boat which may or may not be good.

On the flop he must know you have a 9, so it seems like a really bad spot for him to bluff. I dunno, I guess I puke in my mouth a little bit and fold.

What we learn from this is to not play good regs though. Nothing wrong with good game selection. As bad as people make bumhunting out to be, its obv more profitable than sitting good regs.

[SuuPRlim]

definitely a sick spot, closer to a fold than a ship on the turn for sure but I think we can flat here with 500 behind. I dunno, I guess I just hate folding. Flatting turn and folding blank rivers seems pretty spewy as we're effectively calling the turn to try and bink a boat which may or may not be good.

On the flop he must know you have a 9, so it seems like a really bad spot for him to bluff. I dunno, I guess I puke in my mouth a little bit and fold.

What we learn from this is to not play good regs though. Nothing wrong with good game selection. As bad as people make bumhunting out to be, its obv more profitable than sitting good regs.

Yep very shrewd. Its pretty much only ego that makes you do stuff like this, but I did feel like I had a small edge (fwiw he quit playing me in the end yay!) i ran slightly above EV vs him and managed 1.44 bb/100 over 15600 hands lol wp nice edge etc

It felt at the time like my hand looked EXACTLY like it was. This obv makes me super exploitable in this spot because KK/99 are the only hands that can take a pot pot pot. K9 is tricky because even then I only beat a bluff but still probs call call call. But there really isnt any other line in the hand...

I definatley considered checking the flop back because in truth I dont have a really strong hand, I have 1 nut out and zero BD nut draws. vs this player as well I should have defo considered trying to build a much stronger range to c/back flops like this to protect weaker hands I want to check back flops with. I didn't really do anything like that vs this guy which is defo a mistake.

my gut instinct at the time was to call/call but I bottled it and folded, so obv i dunno what he had but my gut instinct would be he had some some of K block wrap hand that he thought could barrel me off 9 combo's. I just didnt wannt stick 400bigs in drawing dead (nit nit nit etc)

bumhunting ftw yo

[MrBlond]

If you are planning on calling the turn then realise that it doesn't matter what the river is your decision will always be the same (unless you hit a 9 of course). I do think bluffs are possible and they will give up on the river which makes calling the turn feel mandatory but it definitely isn't, also KTQJ type hands are in his range here but that hand could also bluff the river with the K blocker because he knows you can't call the river without at least K9. Has he been check/raising flops light/with air or double barrell bluffing a lot?

FWIW I do like checking back the flop some of the time planning to call/call in those instances because it will build you a solid rep for checking back marginal hands later on. Checking back too often though will make it impossible to get max value when you do have KK here though.