Live Cash Hand. Deep.

[Rupert]

Pretty sure he bets all his air on the flop

disagree

I think you're making a decent sized mistake not betting the turn, even though you likely have the best hand you're repping super weakness to get blown off on turn/river.  As played i'd call, you can't really have a lot except a missed draw especially as you've folded to 2 of his 3 bets already

[George2Loose]

Pretty sure he bets all his air on the flop

disagree

I think you're making a decent sized mistake not betting the turn, even though you likely have the best hand you're repping super weakness to get blown off on turn/river.  As played i'd call, you can't really have a lot except a missed draw especially as you've folded to 2 of his 3 bets already

How often does he check back his air in this spot then? Maybe a bit strong to say he always bets his air.

And surely the fact he's best lildave off pots in previous hands makes it more likely he's betting for thin value?

[Skgv]

Sat to the right of an active (but not overly aggro) young guy in a £1/£2 game.
Have lots of history expected a reasonable amount of 3betting but not super light...Im loosing a small amount he is up a few hundred I think.
He is reasonably tight but definatley not a nit by any stretch, does have a tendancy to BIG light river bets as well but doesnt often do it vs me.

Hero £880
Villian £1k

straddled to £4 1 limper, to me in the Hijack i raise to £20 with  .
Villian 3bets to £52 - THIS IS THE THIRD 3bet of the game I've peeled 1 and folded to 2. none showndown.

Folds back round to me, I call £32

Flop  I check he quickly checks

Turn  . I check he bets £84. I call

River  . I check. He bets £188

Thoughts?

You have ace high, shown no agression so you called turn with intenetion to do what? you never in front in this spot an really dont like your play unless you check rasing river but i still think you get clalled as it looks desperate.

[Skgv]

Pretty sure he bets all his air on the flop

disagree

I think you're making a decent sized mistake not betting the turn, even though you likely have the best hand you're repping super weakness to get blown off on turn/river.  As played i'd call, you can't really have a lot except a missed draw especially as you've folded to 2 of his 3 bets already

YOU MAD?

[GreekStein]

Pretty sure he bets all his air on the flop

disagree

I think you're making a decent sized mistake not betting the turn, even though you likely have the best hand you're repping super weakness to get blown off on turn/river.  As played i'd call, you can't really have a lot except a missed draw especially as you've folded to 2 of his 3 bets already

*like*

[Rupert]

How often does he check back his air in this spot then? Maybe a bit strong to say he always bets his air.

And surely the fact he's best lildave off pots in previous hands makes it more likely he's betting for thin value?

Actually when I posted this I thought we were IP and so were peeling a lot wider and could have hit the board harder but OOP our range is def stronger.  Even still I think he cbets any gutshot/sd he can check behind K/A high some of the time just to look to get to showdown and can certainly check behind 22-77 which although is a bluff catcher would be a bit of a bluff/range merge sort of thing if cbet.

By "2 of his 3 bets" i meant 2 of his 3bets suggesting that our range is likely to be fairly solid hands rather than just any old crap we opened with (like lots of live players who have a really low fold to 3bet) so we are less likely to show up with some random 7 which could otherwise be in our c/c range on turn.  Also if he were going for thin value he would have likely bet smaller to try and get called by a wider range.

I quite like the idea of c/r the turn so we win an extra bet when he has nothing, if villain thinks we are airballing then will probs decide to float over 3 betting and if he does 3 bet we can just stick it in his eye anyway but kinda sucks when he just checks behind and bets river

[DMorgan]

First of all I think we need to know whether or not he's perceptive enough to be able to put you on a fairly wide range in this spot and 3bet light. With the limper in there you're repping a stronger range than just an open raise so is he aware of this and is he still capable of 3betting light?

If he's not and the preflop 3bet is purely for value then I think his line here is really really nutsy, like 88+

I can't see him barrelling twice with AK, I'd expect him to snap check back the river. 998 is a pretty cool flop to check back AA/KK 'cos it doesn't really connect with your range very well and with AA/KK its a way ahead/way behind spot for villain so checking is fine to try and induce a couple of barrels from you.

Obv if he has a wider 3bet range then it gets a lot more interesting but only you can know that really and until he does something to show that he can have a wide range here pre I think that we have to assume that like most average live cash regs, he isn't doing this super wide.

[SuuPRlim]

First of all I think we need to know whether or not he's perceptive enough to be able to put you on a fairly wide range in this spot and 3bet light. With the limper in there you're repping a stronger range than just an open raise so is he aware of this and is he still capable of 3betting light?

He is 100%. He is also capable of  betting thin for value (spesh as he knows im a bit of a station) but he wouldn't bet too thin vs me this deep I dont believe.

On the turn my thoughts were that Id probs have the best hand a ton, I would expect him to check back the flop with pure air a bunch as not many of my hands that I peel pre fold on this flop (certainly no pairs, AK, I have some and as well) so wasn't suprised when he checks the flop. now with a flush draw and bunch of showdown value I figured a check call the better option - the main hands I had in his value range were hands like KK/QQ which I wouldnt be suprised to see him check the flop with, as his hand is pretty invenreble and he can probs value town me with smaller pairs post turn. He is never folding KK/QQ/JJ ever on the turn but i have semi-decent equity. Also I rep no strength at all so likely to induce a second barrel as he can still credibly rep and OverPair on the river.

I do like the c.raise line thought for reasons mentioned, thoughts on sizing?

My reasoning for asking if anyone fancied a river check raise was to see if you thought he'd ever be bluffing with better?

[stato_1]

Can't figure out whether or not I'm the villain. OP do you know?

[SuuPRlim]

Can't figure out whether or not I'm the villain. OP do you know?

I doubt it. sent you a PM though.

[buzzharvey22]

I just cant see villain checking back his air hands on the flop, obv he may check back ak aq maybe aj, but i think hes gunna be carrying on his agression if he is making a move with qj kq kj etc. He may be checking back AA or KK on the flop to simply under-rep his hand and be able to get two streets of value from your range (which i guess is pocket pairs and maybe AJs +), whereas maybe he'd only get 1 street of value from that range if he fired flop and turn. Of course he may have flopped quads or a house too.

I also dont like just flatting the 3 bet with AQ and playing fit or fold when we are out of position, which is kinda what it seems you have done. he has shown weakness by checking the flop (albeit this may be a trap but meh) then when we turn a flush draw, its a great card to stab at on the semi bluff and give ourself another oopourtunity to win the pot, rather than just check calling trying to hit the river. Just a bit spewy as we miss often with AQ and are gunna be check folding quite a bit to a good player on the flop.

[SuuPRlim]

I just cant see villain checking back his air hands on the flop, obv he may check back ak aq maybe aj, but i think hes gunna be carrying on his agression if he is making a move with qj kq kj etc. He may be checking back AA or KK on the flop to simply under-rep his hand and be able to get two streets of value from your range (which i guess is pocket pairs and maybe AJs +), whereas maybe he'd only get 1 street of value from that range if he fired flop and turn. Of course he may have flopped quads or a house too.

I also dont like just flatting the 3 bet with AQ and playing fit or fold when we are out of position, which is kinda what it seems you have done. he has shown weakness by checking the flop (albeit this may be a trap but meh) then when we turn a flush draw, its a great card to stab at on the semi bluff and give ourself another oopourtunity to win the pot, rather than just check calling trying to hit the river. Just a bit spewy as we miss often with AQ and are gunna be check folding quite a bit to a good player on the flop.

Fair point r.e pre, would you advocate a fold or a 4bet? bearning in mind we are 400bbs deep?
one of the main reason's I called the turn was because I really felt id have the best hand here a TON, but general consenus seems to be that I wouldn't so I may well have been wrong to think that.

On the river then, are people saying this is just a fold...bearing in mind he has bet quite large
And no-one thinks he is bet folding anything in his value range, or that he id turning a better hand into a bluff, so shoving is redundent?
Would ANYONE call here?

[buzzharvey22]

Oh i forgot to say i dont mind check calling turn if you think you have the best hand and are gunna snap a bet on the river too, therefore i guess theres no point in betting turn or check raising turn if you think you are ahead.

In OP did u say it was this specific player who had 3 bet you 3 times or was it the table combined?

[DMorgan]

4betting to induce the 5bet bluff sounds pretty cool especially if he can definitely spaz out against you which I'd imagine he can. With the straddle out there you're only 220ish BBs deep and if we can 4bet to say 160ish and get him to  jam light then I like that line more than just flatting the 3bet OOP.

As played I'm not really a big fan of c/c turn 'cos it still lets him valuetown us with 22-66 and AK but it does guarantee that we get to see a river though. Check raising the turn and getting jammed on really really sucks, but we do probably fold out AK and 22-66. I couldn't say for certain which is best but its probably really close and doesn't really matter a whole lot in the long run.

I don't like c/c turn and c/r blank rivers though. You only rep boats and quads which I think is too narrow a range to get folds out of overpairs and decent 8x hands. I like c/c c/r inconspicuous club rivers though.   I think he checks back a lot but if its like the   then c/r looks good.

  is just too gross to contemplate at 3am

[SuuPRlim]

Oh i forgot to say i dont mind check calling turn if you think you have the best hand and are gunna snap a bet on the river too, therefore i guess theres no point in betting turn or check raising turn if you think you are ahead.

In OP did u say it was this specific player who had 3 bet you 3 times or was it the table combined?

this player specific. we have played together for a few yrs and are friends/swap HHs online etc.

4betting to induce the 5bet bluff sounds pretty cool especially if he can definitely spaz out against you which I'd imagine he can. With the straddle out there you're only 220ish BBs deep and if we can 4bet to say 160ish and get him to  jam light then I like that line more than just flatting the 3bet OOP.

Defo considered doing this - wish i had tbf. obv he flicks it in with AA/KK/AK/QQ cant see him folding JJ, he might fold TT idk depends because he was winning he might fold and not tell anyone, then combine with the amount of times he folds its clearly a profitable line - high varience obv but meeh!

As played I'm not really a big fan of c/c turn 'cos it still lets him valuetown us with 22-66 and AK but it does guarantee that we get to see a river though. Check raising the turn and getting jammed on really really sucks, but we do probably fold out AK and 22-66. I couldn't say for certain which is best but its probably really close and doesn't really matter a whole lot in the long run

I think this boils down to three points, 1) How often AQhigh is the best hand atm 2) How often he barrels the river again with air 3) How often he bets 22-66?
If we dont have the best hand hardly ever i.e he range is mostly pocket pairs/AK then c/raising is better, but if he checks back 22-66/AK, but bets most of his air again then its proabaly better to c/c, c/c. Like you say Dan, its so close and because he is very good its very difficult to know and therefore long term spose it doesnt matter at all...

Ye for sure he never bet folds OPs on the river, the intention of a c/raise would be purely  if i think he is bluffing with better (which was a worry at the time) but as I dont think he ever turns small pairs into a bluff/merge, or bets AK I dont see any value there.

Dan, as played what do you do on the river?