TT HU 4bet pre, how to proceed?

[cambridgealex]

PokerStars Game #48898992474: Tournament #306323636, $20+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2010/08/30 21:25:49 WET [2010/08/30 16:25:49 ET]
Table '306323636 1' 2-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: 20alex430 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: woodywhirler (1500 in chips)
20alex430: posts small blind 10
woodywhirler: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 20alex430 [ ]
20alex430: raises 40 to 60
woodywhirler: raises 120 to 180
20alex430: raises 240 to 420
woodywhirler: calls 240
*** FLOP *** [ ]
woodywhirler: checks
20alex430: checks
*** TURN *** [ ] []
woodywhirler: checks
20alex430: checks
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
woodywhirler: checks
20alex430:?

First hand so no reads. Against an unknown would you bet this on the turn/river? How much?

[pleno1]

usually get it in if its the very first hand, will stack off lighter thinking your fucking around imo. any previous dynamics? im guessing he's  a reg looking at his name, are you a reg and whats ur image?

[Whollyflush]

errmm check?

/end thread

[pleno1]

usually get it in if its the very first hand, will stack off lighter thinking your fucking around imo. any previous dynamics? im guessing he's  a reg looking at his name, are you a reg and whats ur image?

this is pre obv.

[DMorgan]

If you're gunna 4bet I think you've gotta make it big enough so that he can't flat and put you in horrible postflop spots when you have a hand like TT. Either that or just flat the 3bet but personally I prefer a 4bet to 520. You shouldn't have a 4bet/fold range 75bbs deep so you should be either flatting the 3bet of 4bet/calling and I think TT is fine to 4bet/call.

As played I bet/fold 400 on the flop. If you check this flop then you're pretty much giving up on any chance to win this hand unless you make some sort of hero call on a later street or he's really passive and lets you check it down. Once you check the flop its gunna be really hard to continue if he bets at any point.

As played I bet ~320 on the river

[cambridgealex]

usually get it in if its the very first hand, will stack off lighter thinking your fucking around imo. any previous dynamics? im guessing he's  a reg looking at his name, are you a reg and whats ur image?

this is pre obv.

well i would've got it in given the chance. I 4bet to 420, and was gonna call a shove. I'm a reg yes, he is not to my knowledge although I've been away for 2months so he could be.

[cambridgealex]

If you're gunna 4bet I think you've gotta make it big enough so that he can't flat and put you in horrible postflop spots when you have a hand like TT. Either that or just flat the 3bet but personally I prefer a 4bet to 520. You shouldn't have a 4bet/fold range 75bbs deep so you should be either flatting the 3bet of 4bet/calling and I think TT is fine to 4bet/call.

As played I bet/fold 400 on the flop. If you check this flop then you're pretty much giving up on any chance to win this hand unless you make some sort of hero call on a later street or he's really passive and lets you check it down. Once you check the flop its gunna be really hard to continue if he bets at any point.

As played I bet ~320 on the river

So why is 520 much different? He can still flat with what he flats here with, then pot is 1040 and we have 980 behind. The spot is pretty much the same postflop, (rather than pot of 840 with 1080 back).

We can bet that flop once he checks, but am I correct to assume his range is AK, AQ, AJs, 99, 88 maybe 77? therefore will snap fold everything i beat, and snap call/jam everything else? why bet? he's gonna have a tough time betting 99,88,77 on future streets as a bluff and will likely play it pretty passive don't you agree?

[AlexMartin]

preflop you want to have a good read and history before using this sort of sizing - ie stacks and fact your average opponent will never 5b bluff....., just jam pre.

errmm check?

/end thread

as played, amazing, we dont have to put in another penny. There are literally no better hands folding and nothing worse calling.

what he said.

[DMorgan]

So why is 520 much different? He can still flat with what he flats here with, then pot is 1040 and we have 980 behind. The spot is pretty much the same postflop, (rather than pot of 840 with 1080 back).

520 is different because is puts him to a shove it fold decision. When you make it 420 he is getting 2.5 to 1 to call the 4bet so he pretty much has to peel a flop with whatever he 3bet with. If you make it 520 he's only getting 1.7 to 1 and calling another 340 is a more significant chunk of his remaining stack. I expect the larger betsize to get flatted rarely.

We can bet that flop once he checks, but am I correct to assume his range is AK, AQ, AJs, 99, 88 maybe 77? therefore will snap fold everything i beat, and snap call/jam everything else? why bet? he's gonna have a tough time betting 99,88,77 on future streets as a bluff and will likely play it pretty passive don't you agree?

I think his preflop range is a lot wider than that given your 4bet sizing and especially since this is the first hand, people spaz out a lot so I wouldn't expect his range to be anything like as tight as you said.

Just because we fold out everything that we're beating and get called by everything that beats us (which I don't 100% agree with anyway, but its probably not far off) that doesn't mean that we should always check. We don't know if its the case here but against a competent opponent you're gunna get bet into on the turn nearly all of the time when you check back this flop and its tough to continue to any significant betsize.

Readless I just prefer the most aggro line and this is a huge pot for the first level. If we check the flop then the only hope that we have to win the pot is when he checks it down which might happen a lot in these games (I don't play HUsngs on stars) but I think thats a little bit optimistic.

[SuuPRlim]

everytime u make posts like this dan you make it less and less likely to give you anymore HU action

[DMorgan]

If only I could apply it when I'm actually playing

[stato_1]

4 bet jam anyone?

[psustudent]

agree with a lot of what dmorgan said. I like 4bet sizing.

Weird spot on flop for sure. I end up checking flop a lot. Thing is yeah if youre against competent players, they will bet turn a lot if you check. But competent players also wont flat AK AQ pre and will jam pre so you can take that out of their range. So there are fewer hands that will feel comfortable betting out turn.

Plus your 4bet and checkback flop does look strong and think about it, How would you (avg. opponent) have played if you had AA, KK on that flop? 4bet pre-check back flop prolly. So you checking flop back will look strong anyway and will slow them down.

So due to these reasons, if he does bet on turn anywhere between 300-500 you should call. Cus a lot of people will still take a stab repping the ace and the pot is big so they will take a stab and you shouldnt fold to a turn barrel here. And again your turn call will look super strong making it even harder for them to bluff river.

If they dont bet turn, I still like a check back on turn as well. So so far I agree with your line.

So if they bet turn and shove river, you have to fold obv. unless you hit a 10 or got some weird timing tell. If they were bluffing good for them.

If you both checked turn, on river if they bet 300-500 you have to call if off for pretty much same reason as state for turn call ie pots big/have to call off a stab. If they check, just check behind, go to showdown.

[pleno1]

4bet shove and either
a)hold
b)dominate his 66-99
c)he folds and were in charge of game straight away?