PLO Hand

[TheFlame]

this hand was one of the hands that was sticking out of my mind when i finished my session.

would like view on how i played the hand. first will be the flop.........followed my the turn later.

READS on the players, UTG have 37 hands on him, been in 68% hand and very Agg, solid so far
Button awful, loves to limp and calls raises with random junk.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
PL Omaha $0.25(BB) Replayer
Hero ($25)
BB ($55.55)
UTG ($20.65)
UTG+1 ($25)
CO ($41.85)
BTN ($21.27)

Dealt to Hero       

UTG raises to $0.85, UTG+1 calls $0.85, fold, BTN calls $0.85, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.60

i like to 3 bet out of the blind, so not sure why i didn't here, is a 3bet out of the blind before the flop ok here?

FLOP ($4.25)     

Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $4.04, UTG+1 folds, BTN calls $4.04, Hero.........??
 
now we just called......what our move? should we of lead out with this hand on this flop?  

[ACE2M]

correct so far imo. 3 bet out of the blinds and everybody thinks you have big cards, so unless my big cards are really strong i'm happy to flat here most times.

[psustudent]

I like flat pre. There are too many callers and 3betting pre is just going to bloat the pot and will make worse hands fold and get called by hands that either crush you or wont pay much after the flop.

I like flatting pre here also to keep a large # of people in and if you flop favorable, keeping more people around will give more than 1 person to make mistakes.

On the flop I am most likely cr pot here if for nothing else than because you have ace of clubs you know they are not drawing to nut flush and you can rep you are.

Id imagine you'll get called in 1 spot and hopefully you're 2 pair will hold or improve but having ace of clubs makes it a mandatory raise imo.

If you didnt have that card, maybe I'd check call on street and reeval on turn. Depending on turn card, I might either c/f or c/c or c/r if i made the straight with a nonclub 10.

[ACE2M]

I like flat pre. There are too many callers and 3betting pre is just going to bloat the pot and will make worse hands fold and get called by hands that either crush you or wont pay much after the flop.

I like flatting pre here also to keep a large # of people in and if you flop favorable, keeping more people around will give more than 1 person to make mistakes.

On the flop I am most likely cr pot here if for nothing else than because you have ace of clubs you know they are not drawing to nut flush and you can rep you are.

Id imagine you'll get called in 1 spot and hopefully you're 2 pair will hold or improve but having ace of clubs makes it a mandatory raise imo.

If you didnt have that card, maybe I'd check call on street and reeval on turn. Depending on turn card, I might either c/f or c/c or c/r if i made the straight with a nonclub 10.

leave no money to rep the nuts if a club falls?

[psustudent]

Well look at the stack sizes.

If you just called, theres like 16 in pot and you would have like 16 after the call.

So by raising, youre using your stack now to chase out some weird hand with non nut draw and also by raising now, youre not giving them odds to chase something thats not the nuts and a club might not even fall.

So if you pot now, they should be thinking 'damn now I have to call this pot raise now and I could not even be chasing the nuts. This guy is playing like hes on nut flush draw. I dont have odds to chase something where I could be drawing dead and may never fall."

If you wait till club falls, some people will be like, "I gotz teh flush. This guy for sure has bare ace repping nutz. Im not folding flush after I got there. And its only one bet and he'll be allin so I dont have to call a big river bet either."

So essentially youre using fold equity now and not giving them odds to draw to non-nuts which may never come assuming one of them is chasing a flush and prolly have some 2 pair/gutshot combo. Once the flush comes and faced with decision to call just 1 bet, most people these days will not even fold a 7 high flush.

[SuuPRlim]

I dont like 3betting this hand out of the blinds, I mean its a sick hand obv but OOP it doesnt play AMAZING - much happier to take a flop multiway

Id lead this flop 100% because you have the  , c/r to get it in I dont think is as good - there are significantly less draw combos that wanna get it in in that scenario if you have the  so you'd get it in vs made hands more often and we dont beat that many made hands that wanna commit 100bbs here.

Leading however does exploit value from the non nut draws KTxx w pairs/ clubs etc that will call 2 streets and allows us to check shove the turn when it comes a green card

[SuuPRlim]

So if you pot now, they should be thinking 'damn now I have to call this pot raise now and I could not even be chasing the nuts. This guy is playing like hes on nut flush draw. I dont have odds to chase something where I could be drawing dead and may never fall."
[/quote

Just to be clear imo if someone has  (or such hand)we want them to "chase" because otherwise how do we make money?

[psustudent]

idk if u noticed but we dont have two clubs in our hand just one, the bare  repping nut flush draw.

[SuuPRlim]

idk if u noticed but we dont have two clubs in our hand just one, the bare  repping nut flush draw.

I did notice this

[psustudent]

ok making sure

ok so given we just have 1 club and they have two, how are we making money if we just call here?

If a club falls on turn, and we shove for $16, do you think that type of hand will fold for 1bet after flush got there?

Even if they did, by you potting the flop, you give them even worse odds to continue when they dont even know if the club will fall or if they are drawing dead?

So idk how you think we can make more money by keeping those hands around when we just have one club. Its a different story if we had two, then you could argue keeping worse clubs around.

If its still not clear, just post the line youd take on flop and on turn say if a club fell on turn and I will post why it wouldnt make sense or prolly youll figure it out on your own while posting.

[TheFlame]

thanks for the comments everyone, know i made the mistake of just calling this flop really to see a safe turn card, know the button player liked to call down with random junk and low flush draws.

now i called the flop,.......

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
PL Omaha $0.25(BB) Replayer
Hero ($25)
BB ($55.55)
UTG ($20.65)
UTG+1 ($25)
CO ($41.85)
BTN ($21.27)

Dealt to Hero        

UTG raises to $0.85, UTG+1 calls $0.85, fold, BTN calls $0.85, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.60

FLOP ($4.25)      

Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $4.04, UTG+1 folds, BTN calls $4.04, Hero calls $4.04, BB folds

TURN ($16.37)        

Hero..............??

[ACE2M]

check/fold.

[psustudent]

yea check fold seems about right. your 3pair is not looking good anymore.

[SuuPRlim]

ok making sure

ok so given we just have 1 club and they have two, how are we making money if we just call here?

If a club falls on turn, and we shove for $16, do you think that type of hand will fold for 1bet after flush got there?

Even if they did, by you potting the flop, you give them even worse odds to continue when they dont even know if the club will fall or if they are drawing dead?

So idk how you think we can make more money by keeping those hands around when we just have one club. Its a different story if we had two, then you could argue keeping worse clubs around.

If its still not clear, just post the line youd take on flop and on turn say if a club fell on turn and I will post why it wouldnt make sense or prolly youll figure it out on your own while posting.

Basically because we have the NUT club this removes a LOT of draw/combo's that would get 100bb's in on the flop, this tighten any villain who usnt a complete spazz's ranges up a little, if they mainly have made hands in the range to bet or call or however we end upp getting it in on the flop then our hand doesnt actually play that well vs thier range

However if super weak 1 pair/bad draw hands that make up a much larger part fold the flop to a c/r but call 2 streets incorrectly/often make a worse 2p and call a third then there is much more value to be taken from a bet bet line imo

If a club turns I would probs c/shove I really wouldnt expect a LOT of non nut flushes to bet the turn in this spot, and on the occasions we run into shitty flushes we still have 4 outs.

This is the line I would take, but if I had reaosn to think villains were loose/bad I think a c/r is still ok

[SuuPRlim]

If its still not clear, just post the line youd take on flop and on turn say if a club fell on turn and I will post why it wouldnt make sense or prolly youll figure it out on your own while posting.

This came across as a touch arrogant btw considering that you dont know me. Thsi thread was started for the benefit of the OP, who had questions about HIS line in the hand, I respected your opinion and posted my own, with the intention being to give an objective view on the hand for the OP (whose hand it was) and for us all to learn a little bit more about how other people think in these spots.

If Id have wanted a lesson I'll post a few hands and ask for it.