OOP in 4bet pot, bad turn card

[Boba Fett]

Ongame $50r 6max as part of their GSOP series.  800-1k entrants, there is around 70 players left, $25k ftw and myself and the villian are both top 10 stacks in the tourney.

Hadnt seen the villain before this tourney but we were on the same table earlier in the tourney and he had been opening light and was being very active and loose although we didnt clash.  He has now been at this table with me for 3 orbits. 

We have clashed a few times in his time at this table, I have raise/folded to a 3bet from him, he has caught me check/raising him and double barrelling with air, he has 3bet me both times from the BB when I opened the SB.  Hand immediately before this hand he called the river with 2nd or 3rd pair and caught me bluffing at a 4flushing board.  He has been opening often and showing down some weaker hands e.g utg open with Q9o

So we have both been active, he has won every pot v me and he has caught me bluffing a few times.  He has lost some pots since the last BvB clash we had and now we're BvB again and I have JJ in the SB.......


Table Table 36 77574091 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 7: fettissick ( 380523)
Seat 10: vladan_ ( 385412)
Seat 2: Idonthateit (102284)
Seat 5: WinDig ( 88225)
Seat 6: 17Pott4 ( 138774)
fettissick posts ante of [400].
vladan_ posts ante of [400].
Idonthateit posts ante of [400].
WinDig posts ante of [400].
17Pott4 posts ante of [400].
fettissick posts small blind [2000].
vladan_ posts big blind [4000].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fettissick [  ]
Idonthateit folds
WinDig folds
17Pott4 folds
fettissick raises to 9000
vladan_ raises to 28000
fettissick raises 52555
vladan_ calls 24555
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
fettissick bets 61555
vladan_ calls 61555
** Dealing Turn ** [ As ]


Pre I think its standard, Im 4betting with the intention of going to the felt V this guy.  Since I havent seen him show do any premium hands Im unsure if he would flat a bigger hand here or 5 bet it however Im sure his 3betting range is extremely wide.  This is the 1st time Ive 4bet him but I think he would call with most of his 3betting range.

Flop is a standard cbet, I think he is capable of calling here with pairs/draws/Ace highs etc. he is also probably capable of floating his entire preflop range.

A on the turn.  230220 in the pot.  I have 266013 behind, he has me covered by 1BB.

What do we do?  Check or bet? Why?

If we check, are we check/folding to a bet or check/calling or check/raising?
If we bet, what do we do if he raises?

Thanks

[sligboi]

First off I think playing that many pots in such a short period of time with the player directly to your left is not a good strat.

Secondly I'm never really an exponent of betting big as a smaller amount usually gets the same result. However on this occasion I probably 4 bet to 59k. When he calls this leaves 120k in the pot with just over 320k behind. It's a pretty dream flop for us as he shouldn't be set mining at all but definitely not with anything that's hit. We can then try to set up a turn shove by leaving ourselves less than a psb behind. I probably make it around 75k so if he flats there 270k in the pot and we have 245k and can shove most cards on the flop. I'm also calling if he shoves here.

Now to your question, I think there are a shit load of Aces in his range (including A3 which already has us crushed ldo) so I don't like betting this card as we never get action from anything we beat. However by checking we allow him to rep it when he doesn't have it so I like a c/c including a shove tbh. There are loads of arguments for a c/f as you'll still have over 60bbs but I prob can't let this go against a player with we have the history you have described. Also we put ourselves into superb shape by winning this pot.

[SuuPRlim]

I often think that when your in the early stage of developing a dynamic like this, you're percieved 4betting range is kinda polarised, obv you're either 4betting to call/6bet or to fold, but I doubt he expects you to 4-6bet AJo at this stage this deep so you're 4bet calling/6betting range is going to be mainly very strong hands, so I wouldn't expect him to be peeling to many Ax's.

Im not really too sure exactly what hands he peels with over jamming, maybe hands like  /  idk hands that play pretty good vs a polarised 4bet range, but that he doesnt want to 5bet call off 60bbs with, maybe some smaller suited connectors as well possibly.

I cant really see any way to fold here imo, its a card that should smash our range much more than his so im not sure how likely he is to barrel this card with some hearts and over cards....

what do people think about betting tiny and snapping a jam off? Or is check call a better line?

[DMorgan]

4bet could be bigger, the main reason that he's peeling his whole 3bet range is because your 4bet is so small.

4bet bigger, cbet bigger and bet/call the flop - simples

As played everything sounds pretty gross - I think the one that I hate the least is bet/fold 90k. For you to bet/call here he's gotta be suuuuuuuper spazzy. I guess this guy kinda is but with the tiny 4bet sizing and the smallish cbet he can show up with Ax  with backdoor hearts pretty easily here imo.

[SuuPRlim]

4bet could be bigger, the main reason that he's peeling his whole 3bet range is because your 4bet is so small.

4bet bigger, cbet bigger and bet/call the flop - simples

BAM

[Rupert]

ya your 4 bet is far far too small here and a pretty decent sized leak vs everyone.  flop is fine, c/f the turn he checks back worse made and everything else has good equity vs you/its hard to get to showdown

[SuuPRlim]

ya your 4 bet is far far too small here and a pretty decent sized leak vs everyone.  flop is fine, c/f the turn he checks back worse made and everything else has good equity vs you/its hard to get to showdown

after conference with DMorgan we reached similar comclusions, Rupert what you think to a tiny bet/fold? like ~50k or something?

[Rupert]

well if hes bluffing hes either gonna raise the turn or call and bluff the river and if ur beat hes not folding... IDK feel we setting ourselves to get owned a lot here.  i'd rather c/c turn and river than b/c or b/f i think but i most want to just c/f

[railtard1]

4bet could be bigger, the main reason that he's peeling his whole 3bet range is because your 4bet is so small.

4bet bigger, cbet bigger and bet/call the flop - simples

As played everything sounds pretty gross - I think the one that I hate the least is bet/fold 90k. For you to bet/call here he's gotta be suuuuuuuper spazzy. I guess this guy kinda is but with the tiny 4bet sizing and the smallish cbet he can show up with Ax  with backdoor hearts pretty easily here imo.

agree 4bet size is way too small, but it still gets some folds.

really gay spot on turn. i think we can only check, feel so lame check folding (but i think its just about all we can do.) The turn should go check / check a HUGE % of the time tho

[Boba Fett]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Couple of notes, I would normally 4bet to around 58k here (58888), just had a brain misclick on the raise amount, didnt intentionally make it smaller for any reason.  Villain is playing so loose I dont think it would affect his range much/at all.

Also, we were both pretty active when we were at the same table not long before this although we didnt really clash.  If he was paying attention, I think, he should know Im capable of 4betting light. 
With the dynamics of the table since he joined I think it would seem like a good spot for me to 4bet light or 4bet just because Im frustrated that he has been winning every pot v me.

Anyway, I checked.  He checks behind

River is 

What now?

What now?

[iveysda]

paul, have u considered the possibility of him having 88/99/10's , as ur 4 bet was flatted pre, surely anything bigger than jacks gets the 5 bet (ak inc).
i think check river he might be happy to check behind if he has these hands...if he bets ur probaly beat...

[DMorgan]

When the turn goes check/check I think you have the best hand almost always. I'm not worries about hearts because I think every combo of hearts either c/raises the flop or fires the turn to rep/vbet the A. His turn check behind looks way more like a weakish showdown value hand like a mid pair.

I kinda wanna go for thin value because I don't think that we're ever gunna get bluff raised in this spot but c/c seems fine too depending on his sizing. I assume he does something gross like shoves?

[T_Mar]

Not sure I like check/calling the river, most of his hands with showdown value that we beat will check behind the river.. so only beating a bluff, if he is blufffing then argubly more likely he would bet the scare card on turn ?? I dont think things have changed that much from your decision on the turn... either go for small value bet, or check/fold I think

[DMorgan]

fwiw our line looks pretty FOS if we lead the river. Looks pretty much like we cbet and got called, shut down the turn and found a perfect river scare card to bluff. I'd probably lead ~35% of pot

[SuuPRlim]

you folding or calling if we DO get raised, Id persinally really really struggle to fold.

+1 on beting over checking and c/call I dont like at all either

Very interesting hand, bet afterwards you wished youd just jammed pre haha (not tht we should do tht ever lol)