Pre flop raise sizing

[nirvana]

This will seem basic but never too late to try and learn something. Prompted a bit by something I read here about linkage between ones own raise sizing linking with oppo's raise sizing

Live tourney, 10 handed, blinds 200-400, R/A 25 - average stack around 19K

UTG + 1 limps (stack maybe 50K, yes that's right) , next to act makes it 1800 (stack around 40K) , you're in the cut off with KK (stack 18K)

How much do you raise and if you have a second to add some detail, what's your rationale for the raise size ?

Thanks

[Ironside]

How much you got in your stack if average or above I would make it between 5 and 5.5k

[cambridgealex]

4225. i think over 5k and he thinks he has to make an 18k decision. make it 4100-4500 and he might peel wider and we can get our stack in on the turn. cbet 5.2k, shove ~9k on turn. im not a tourni player rele, just my initial thoughts...

[the sicilian]

LOLZ glen...

what r u asking this for..4k and puke call when early limper shoves lolz...hope its hamid and his got A 8 off

[stato_1]

live i make it 4875. online probably make it 4396

[the sicilian]

live i make it 4875. online probably make it 4396

Could you please be more exact with your bet sizing so glen doesnt get confused..

[Chompy]

Go all in. Most of the time they can't call.

[kinboshi]

Go all in. Most of the time they can't call.

Glenn, just do a deal that sees the chip-leader get 114% of the first prize money.

[railtard1]

sizing here rests hugely on opponent tendancies (how light is mp1 likely to be iso'ing the utg+1 / how many hands has he shown down etc) and how were percieved.
For example if the big stack being iso'd is a common trait at the table then the MP player can have a wide range and us 3betting here will likely get alot of folds whatever were making it (if opponents are capable). If our image is laggy (were playing alot of hands, 3betting, iso'ing limpers etc) then obv its different. Ideal scenerio is that we have been playing alot of hands and the MP player isnt folding many hands to us, in which case we can make it 5k. We have like 1.3x pot left iif he does peel (if he is more likely to peel than jam or fold then 5k is a really decent amount i think.) If your opponent is more likely to spaz pre then make it 3650 or summink, giving the illusion of FE.
FWIW i think i like flatting pre. We have a hugely underrepped hand obviously, and the limper is calling like 99% of the time. We then have a >6k pot and the limpers range will include a ton of hands that are going to have terrible equity vs us, hands like jq / jt / kj / qt which will flop one pair hands a decent amount of the time.
Obv depending on read on opponents / opponent tendancies, sometimes flatting pre might be bad (playing for stacks ftw).
The table dynamic and more importantly your table dynamic should factor into your sizing and decision making preflop though (and later streets also for that matter). I think mtt players create a dynamic then fail to adjust to it too often (sometimes creating a dynamic by accident or unintentionally). In any mtt you will have some dynamic which has been shaped over a period of hands (maybe from raise folding your button or 3betting your button on consec orbits), knowing how to adjust to it is a very important and when masterred can mean a ton of things, for example our opponents stackng off light, our opponents giving us an extra street of value, our opponents folding more hands to us than they should, being able to 3bet / call very light or even our opponents going into station mode against us... the key is being able to adjust.


p.s was this hand posted because the utg+1 limp raised and had AA or something?

[Chompy]

News of a Nirvana-style chop from Vegas.

Three-handed in the 7pm at Cheeser's Palace and $3,600 left to play for.

Overwhelming chip leader wants to deal and says he'll take $1,000 as long as the other two were happy splitting the rest. Amazing scenes.

[nirvana]

sizing here rests hugely on opponent tendancies (how light is mp1 likely to be iso'ing the utg+1 / how many hands has he shown down etc) and how were percieved.
For example if the big stack being iso'd is a common trait at the table then the MP player can have a wide range and us 3betting here will likely get alot of folds whatever were making it (if opponents are capable). If our image is laggy (were playing alot of hands, 3betting, iso'ing limpers etc) then obv its different. Ideal scenerio is that we have been playing alot of hands and the MP player isnt folding many hands to us, in which case we can make it 5k. We have like 1.3x pot left iif he does peel (if he is more likely to peel than jam or fold then 5k is a really decent amount i think.) If your opponent is more likely to spaz pre then make it 3650 or summink, giving the illusion of FE.
FWIW i think i like flatting pre. We have a hugely underrepped hand obviously, and the limper is calling like 99% of the time. We then have a >6k pot and the limpers range will include a ton of hands that are going to have terrible equity vs us, hands like jq / jt / kj / qt which will flop one pair hands a decent amount of the time.
Obv depending on read on opponents / opponent tendancies, sometimes flatting pre might be bad (playing for stacks ftw).
The table dynamic and more importantly your table dynamic should factor into your sizing and decision making preflop though (and later streets also for that matter). I think mtt players create a dynamic then fail to adjust to it too often (sometimes creating a dynamic by accident or unintentionally). In any mtt you will have some dynamic which has been shaped over a period of hands (maybe from raise folding your button or 3betting your button on consec orbits), knowing how to adjust to it is a very important and when masterred can mean a ton of things, for example our opponents stackng off light, our opponents giving us an extra street of value, our opponents folding more hands to us than they should, being able to 3bet / call very light or even our opponents going into station mode against us... the key is being able to adjust.


p.s was this hand posted because the utg+1 limp raised and had AA or something?

Thanks, you are obviously a superior player to the Luton regs :-)

No, nothing like a limp re-raise from UTG + 1.

I made it 4700 and they both called, I expected a re-raise or fold from UTG +1 (only just joined the table so virtually no info) and a definite call from MP.

Flop was 9 7 4, check from UTG +1 and then shove from MP and I call. MP has 88.

The reason for the post was that someone posted here about raise sizes in relationship to other peoples raise sizes. So, I'm trying to figure out what range MP puts me on when I, in his terms, only raise it to 4700.

Like you point out, there are many factors beyond raise sizing, and I'm sure he thinks I'm pretty loose though I've shown few hands - must lay off the wine imo

ie, I think

[railtard1]

sizing here rests hugely on opponent tendancies (how light is mp1 likely to be iso'ing the utg+1 / how many hands has he shown down etc) and how were percieved.
For example if the big stack being iso'd is a common trait at the table then the MP player can have a wide range and us 3betting here will likely get alot of folds whatever were making it (if opponents are capable). If our image is laggy (were playing alot of hands, 3betting, iso'ing limpers etc) then obv its different. Ideal scenerio is that we have been playing alot of hands and the MP player isnt folding many hands to us, in which case we can make it 5k. We have like 1.3x pot left iif he does peel (if he is more likely to peel than jam or fold then 5k is a really decent amount i think.) If your opponent is more likely to spaz pre then make it 3650 or summink, giving the illusion of FE.
FWIW i think i like flatting pre. We have a hugely underrepped hand obviously, and the limper is calling like 99% of the time. We then have a >6k pot and the limpers range will include a ton of hands that are going to have terrible equity vs us, hands like jq / jt / kj / qt which will flop one pair hands a decent amount of the time.
Obv depending on read on opponents / opponent tendancies, sometimes flatting pre might be bad (playing for stacks ftw).
The table dynamic and more importantly your table dynamic should factor into your sizing and decision making preflop though (and later streets also for that matter). I think mtt players create a dynamic then fail to adjust to it too often (sometimes creating a dynamic by accident or unintentionally). In any mtt you will have some dynamic which has been shaped over a period of hands (maybe from raise folding your button or 3betting your button on consec orbits), knowing how to adjust to it is a very important and when masterred can mean a ton of things, for example our opponents stackng off light, our opponents giving us an extra street of value, our opponents folding more hands to us than they should, being able to 3bet / call very light or even our opponents going into station mode against us... the key is being able to adjust.


p.s was this hand posted because the utg+1 limp raised and had AA or something?

Thanks, you are obviously a superior player to the Luton regs :-)

No, nothing like a limp re-raise from UTG + 1.

I made it 4700 and they both called, I expected a re-raise or fold from UTG +1 (only just joined the table so virtually no info) and a definite call from MP.

Flop was 9 7 4, check from UTG +1 and then shove from MP and I call. MP has 88.

The reason for the post was that someone posted here about raise sizes in relationship to other peoples raise sizes. So, I'm trying to figure out what range MP puts me on when I, in his terms, only raise it to 4700.

Like you point out, there are many factors beyond raise sizing, and I'm sure he thinks I'm pretty loose though I've shown few hands - must lay off the wine imo

ie, I think

nh sir, pretty funny that the utg+1 guy peels

[SuuPRlim]

marc next time u wanna give a response this good pls can u use paragraphs. kthnkx

[Rupert]

if its in france just make it 12k

[railtard1]

if its in france just make it 12k

or in italy shove