Live Cash gross turn spot

[cambridgealex]

DTD 0.50/ 1 Sigh. 6handed, playing £200, i raise   in the cutoff to £6. SB calls (also playing 200) BB raises to £12 (playing £60). i call, SB calls.

  . The SB leads for £35. BB insta ships £48. SB is fairly tight from what i've seen and I'm pretty sure will fold all one pair hands if I ship here. I've never seen him lead out for pot in this spot before so this was strange. I put his range on KQ KJ KT, and decided the best way to extract more value was to flat as I think he folds all of these if i ship. The BB obv has AA or AK (more likely AA). I called the £48, the SB called the extra £13.

The turn is the  . The SB pretty quickly moves in for £140. Wtf? The blinds were mates I think as the BB had just moved to the table and sat next to SB chatting etc. Had no idea what he had except maybe Kx or kx . Id never seen him donkbet pot on a flop with a FD and he didnt seem like the type to do that but didn't have much info or history.

Might have AK as he'd flatted my CO open with AA from the SB before. But very few combos of AK left given the BB almost certaintly has AA or AK. Whats the best move here?

[the rage]

All things considered, i dont see what villian could possibly have that you are beating. I would say that it's a pretty easy fold here. I dont play cash btw .

[SuuPRlim]

I would call Im sure.

He doesn't JAM AcesUp in this spot i dont think, plus your read for the BB having AA/AK means that the SB is less likely to have AK also (plus he might raise preflop again with that hand, and I dont think he is donking A9 in this hand.
he has something like  or some such hand imo, I really dont believe he would have a flush either as I don't expect him to a)donk a flush draw, or b) jam a flush on the turn (except maybe a very small one)

The only other option is he has a set, but there are only 2 other available Kings and 9's, so it's most likely 4's, and you still have outs.

I call.

[redarmi]

I really think he has a set here.  Probably fours I suppose but possibly the case nines.  The inital bet on the flop looks to me like it is tring to protect versus the flush rather than semibluffing a draw.  KQ or KJ with a heart is only thing you are realistically beating but this seems unlike a line he would take if he is really tight.  End of the day this is .50-1. 

[skolsuper]

Probably has a flush. Fold.

[Whollyflush]

A small part of me dies inside when ppl say stuff like "SB is fairly tight from what i've seen and I'm pretty sure will fold all one pair hands if I ship here. I've never seen him lead out for pot in this spot before so this was strange. I put his range on KQ KJ KT, and decided the best way to extract more value was to flat as I think he folds all of these if i ship".

Basically hes live in a casino and is probably a moron slow playing AA or summit. Calling and not taking all his money is a cardinal sin.

[SuuPRlim]

A small part of me dies inside when ppl say stuff like "SB is fairly tight from what i've seen and I'm pretty sure will fold all one pair hands if I ship here. I've never seen him lead out for pot in this spot before so this was strange. I put his range on KQ KJ KT, and decided the best way to extract more value was to flat as I think he folds all of these if i ship".

Basically hes live in a casino and is probably a moron slow playing AA or summit. Calling and not taking all his money is a cardinal sin.

+1

[AlexMartin]

so theres 120 in the pot and your jam will give villain 2:1 ish? dont get fancy with extraction, dont get to the turn, jam flop.

[cambridgealex]

A small part of me dies inside when ppl say stuff like "SB is fairly tight from what i've seen and I'm pretty sure will fold all one pair hands if I ship here. I've never seen him lead out for pot in this spot before so this was strange. I put his range on KQ KJ KT, and decided the best way to extract more value was to flat as I think he folds all of these if i ship".

Basically hes live in a casino and is probably a moron slow playing AA or summit. Calling and not taking all his money is a cardinal sin.

+1

yup, sure would be a good call drawing dead if he has AA.

Yes he's a live player and pretty clueless. But there are a bunch of different types of idiots and in fact, a small part of me dies inside when i read posts like that. Im almost certain the BB has AA, no way the SB does obv. Read the post, then comment. There's are reason Ive described the villain in more detail than "basically he's live in a casino and probably a moron etc etc". suprised you +1d that dave.

so theres 120 in the pot and your jam will give villain 2:1 ish? dont get fancy with extraction, dont get to the turn, jam flop.

Its so tilty when i go to the effort of describing someone saying they were certainly competant enough to fold KQ, KJ etc if I shipped the flop and then ppl come on with this "live casino moron wont fold a pair" bs. Im not getting called by worse if i ship the flop, except NFD probs. I wasn't asking about my flop line, was asking about the turn. FWIW I called, he had  , the BB had AA.

[cambridgealex]

I would call Im sure.

He doesn't JAM AcesUp in this spot i dont think, plus your read for the BB having AA/AK means that the SB is less likely to have AK also (plus he might raise preflop again with that hand, and I dont think he is donking A9 in this hand.
he has something like  or some such hand imo, I really dont believe he would have a flush either as I don't expect him to a)donk a flush draw, or b) jam a flush on the turn (except maybe a very small one)

The only other option is he has a set, but there are only 2 other available Kings and 9's, so it's most likely 4's, and you still have outs.

I call.

Agreed, I concluded the only had that made any sense was Kx or similar. I didnt think he'd donk a FD and I don't know why he'd jam a flush on the turn into a dry side pot. But he did and I lost. Maybe we are looking at it the wrong way. Rather than say, "his line doesn't really make sense, or "Im struggling to put him on a hand" we should note that generally live players play their hands pretty lets say unconventional, and in a spot like this, maybe it's better to just look at the spot in isolation and say, this guy isn't bluffing, and he is unlikely to have only one pair, so irrespective of the range of hands I put him on in previous streets, when he moves all in on the turn, I am probably beat. I don't know whether looking at things in that way is a good idea or not.

So often their logic is completely, well, illogical and thus its very hard to put them on a hand. I've know idea why he'd play his hand that way and that baffled me into making the wrong decision.

[SuuPRlim]

A small part of me dies inside when ppl say stuff like "SB is fairly tight from what i've seen and I'm pretty sure will fold all one pair hands if I ship here. I've never seen him lead out for pot in this spot before so this was strange. I put his range on KQ KJ KT, and decided the best way to extract more value was to flat as I think he folds all of these if i ship".

Basically hes live in a casino and is probably a moron slow playing AA or summit. Calling and not taking all his money is a cardinal sin.

+1

yup, sure would be a good call drawing dead if he has AA.

Yes he's a live player and pretty clueless. But there are a bunch of different types of idiots and in fact, a small part of me dies inside when i read posts like that. Im almost certain the BB has AA, no way the SB does obv. Read the post, then comment. There's are reason Ive described the villain in more detail than "basically he's live in a casino and probably a moron etc etc". suprised you +1d that dave.

so theres 120 in the pot and your jam will give villain 2:1 ish? dont get fancy with extraction, dont get to the turn, jam flop.

Its so tilty when i go to the effort of describing someone saying they were certainly competant enough to fold KQ, KJ etc if I shipped the flop and then ppl come on with this "live casino moron wont fold a pair" bs. Im not getting called by worse if i ship the flop, except NFD probs. I wasn't asking about my flop line, was asking about the turn. FWIW I called, he had  , the BB had AA.

I've played an inhuman amount of hours in live games like this in my life and the problem I think is that you're over thinking situation where just a reasonably stnd line would be optimal given the circumstances. You're thinking is clearly on a very high level and Im DEFO not advocating lowering your standard of thinking in anyway in these spots but giving the level of thinking of your opponents much more attention and not leveling urself as a result.

My rule of thumb for these situations is that in a live poker game people can do spazzy things at times when it seems inconceivable to do something spazzy, people also bet when they don't know what to do, where you might think because you have X hand which is in great shape vs a decent % of his range, but struggling vs his range that stacks of on a certain flop, he has prolly thought something like this
"I might have the best hand, I err, think, don't know what to do i'll just bet"
Because of how often I've seen stuff like this happen I just cant fold spots like this, and jamming is better because we need to punish the times he's betting with his face and thats how we show a profit long term vs the times when he actually has a hand as strong as he's repping.

Honestly some of the stuff Iv seen happen in games like this would blow your mind, as Im sure you've seen plenty by now