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Author Topic: Bottom set deep in live mtt  (Read 2961 times)
Nico29
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« on: February 04, 2011, 12:02:46 AM »

Ok here's the scenario:

Comp=£325 mtt with like a £50k pool.

Standard-Pretty bad, lots of overbetting, bad stories, general spews.

Structure-45 mins levels, 20k stack, 3 day event with levels increasing over the days.




Player 1 is pretty typical of the table, plays too many hands, esp oop, and generally seems to think too late and possibly might over analyse certain situations, not appaulling but not great.

Player 2
is a good, solid circuit reg who i respect and have spoken to in the break, has some lag moves but genearlly tag and won't be going crazy early on without some kind of equity.

I've been floating with position a great deal and mostly keeping pots small unless i have the snizzles or semi so. Think my image is as a bit of a peeler and potential bluffer as opponent 2 earlier picked me off on the river wihen i held q high in a relatively small pot with a missed draw i bet the river as i gen thought he cld have missed a draw too, instead i was owned by 3rd pair. Smiley

Anyway lets get onto the hand.

Player 1=15k stack

Player 2=30k stack

Me=20k stack


Level 3 -75/150


Player 1 donk opens to 700 at 75/150 utg+1. He hasn't overrsd much pre and i'm thinking he's pretty strong here, big aces, or big pairs. I find   three diamonds utg+4, on a ten handed table. I peel thinking i have lovely implied odds here and i'm quite sure 1 or 2 others will come along 2, helping our potential to win big if we get some settage. Folded round to player 2 who peels on the button, his range is pretty wide but i'd expect mostly pocket pairs and std connectors, not too many aces although i have seen him play ak std pretty cautiously previously.

Flop is  three diamonds

Player 1 cbets like 2k quite aggressively into the pot of 2325.

His body language screams ak to me, but as he's the type to make hero laydowns I really don't want him folding and tbh i'd kinda like the button in too on this board, so i peel quickly hoping some1 will think i'm flushing or overplaying some kinda ace. I feel bar maybe on club turns we can build the pot later. Thoughts?

Opponent 2 quickly raises it up to 5.5k, opponent 1 looks like he wants to puke and after tanking for like 3 mins folds what i believe to be possibly aq or ak.

Thoughts now?

After some feedback i'll carry on with the hand. Would really appreciate some people's thoughts on what line's they take here and what range's we can assign player 2. Also do ppl think calling off 5% pre effective is bad here, i thought it was ok as the table was gen passive pre and donkish post where i felt i had an advantage.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 12:06:25 AM by Nico29 » Logged
titaniumbean
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 12:25:25 AM »

call, what's the turn?

I don't see much merit to doing as they say a 'back-raise'  (teehee), if you want to fold either the circuit reg isn't very good or we should fold pre. Depending on the turn card and bet size i'm calling/jamming.
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 01:00:11 AM »

call, what's the turn?

I don't see much merit to doing as they say a 'back-raise'  (teehee), if you want to fold either the circuit reg isn't very good or we should fold pre. Depending on the turn card and bet size i'm calling/jamming.

out of interest, do you think the circuit reg would believe that UTG is capable of folding Ak/Aq? I spose if he does it opens a TON of semibluffs into his range - if not then your hand is kinda smack bang in the middle of his value range so just clicking the call button unless something drastic changes seems to be the nest line

fwiw if you think there ARE gonna be semi-bluffs in player 2's range here i dont hate a flop "back-raise" but most of the time live this wont be the case so call call best
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 01:56:46 AM »

ur stack means you basically cannot see the turn. jam over that 5.5

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redarmi
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 02:34:14 AM »

Clear shove for me.
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Nico29
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 07:51:08 AM »

call, what's the turn?

I don't see much merit to doing as they say a 'back-raise'  (teehee), if you want to fold either the circuit reg isn't very good or we should fold pre. Depending on the turn card and bet size i'm calling/jamming.

out of interest, do you think the circuit reg would believe that UTG is capable of folding Ak/Aq? I spose if he does it opens a TON of semibluffs into his range - if not then your hand is kinda smack bang in the middle of his value range so just clicking the call button unless something drastic changes seems to be the nest line

fwiw if you think there ARE gonna be semi-bluffs in player 2's range here i dont hate a flop "back-raise" but most of the time live this wont be the case so call call best

Yeah i think the reg will believe the utg guy can fold aq/ak.

So yeah i think some semi-bluffs can be put in his range, i think a flop back raise is almost similar to going all in though right, prob wld rather just jam and rep a fd, rather than almost turn my hand face up by clicking back.

ur stack means you basically cannot see the turn. jam over that 5.5



Kinda agree with this.

Clear shove for me.

Reasoning?

call, what's the turn?

I don't see much merit to doing as they say a 'back-raise'  (teehee), if you want to fold either the circuit reg isn't very good or we should fold pre. Depending on the turn card and bet size i'm calling/jamming.

I'm not playing to fold sets on this board, but i'm not loving life either, his play screams of strength to me and pocket 8's kept running through my mind. Obv that's just a cooler and i aint folding here, i'm just looking to make the clear value decision and tbh was torn between jamming and calling. Still not one hundred percent sure either way! I'll leave this open for more comments and post what i did etc this afternoon.

Cheers all for input so far, much appreciated.
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 07:55:07 AM »

Reason? Because you are beind to 1 hand and if he has it it's a cooler
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Nico29
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2011, 08:15:52 AM »

Reason? Because you are beind to 1 hand and if he has it it's a cooler

We are not massively worried about being behind, we are worried about folding any potential semi-bluffs and 1 pair, even 2 pair hands.

Thus reasoning over a jam or a call is relevant due to that thing we call value.
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Ironside
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 10:12:08 AM »

I like to fold out any semi bluff here enough in pot already and he is getting good odds for the call with a semi bluff so if you can get rid of that you have your value
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 12:59:26 PM »

yh any flop raise should be an all in agreed me and titface were taking the piss with the "back-raise" comments Smiley

If you think he is capable of trying to get UTG off AK/AQ opens his range up to some semi-bluffs he'll be forced to call these off when you jam

Villain never has air here cos he's would never be able to fold to UTG so has to have a hand with equity vs AK/AQ (or ahead) as the whole table prolly thinks thats his likely holding
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 02:00:51 PM »

Reason? Because you are beind to 1 hand and if he has it it's a cooler

We are not massively worried about being behind, we are worried about folding any potential semi-bluffs and 1 pair, even 2 pair hands.

Thus reasoning over a jam or a call is relevant due to that thing we call value.

if you CALL this flop, its clear that you wont be folding to a turn jam anyhow given stacksize. Flatting gives some hands a freecard (maybe some spazzy 34cc/45cc) and makes our range look stronger b/c those rare pair/combodraw hands we could have we would generally jam on the flop as our equity would be much higher. jamming will stack the odd AK and a8, flatting wont b/c a lot of cards scare players (needlessly...QJT,club).
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2011, 02:07:42 PM »

i have similar hand in grand prix  get on with it tho coz i get bores easily. i personally think fold coz if you dont learn from your mistakes then you aint learning.
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2011, 02:12:58 PM »

Nice post Nico.
I would put villian's likely range as- 88-37%, A8-26%, KQ clubs, or similar flush draw-25%, AK-8%, A3-4%.
If you re-raise/ shove i would guess that you will fold out the hands that you are crushing. I think villian could still call with the nut flush draw.
I will say CALL- But hating an ace (one outer) on the turn.

Apologies for being pedantic, but where have you got these numbers from?
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« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2011, 02:14:39 PM »

Reason? Because you are beind to 1 hand and if he has it it's a cooler

We are not massively worried about being behind, we are worried about folding any potential semi-bluffs and 1 pair, even 2 pair hands.

Thus reasoning over a jam or a call is relevant due to that thing we call value.

if you CALL this flop, its clear that you wont be folding to a turn jam anyhow given stacksize. Flatting gives some hands a freecard (maybe some spazzy 34cc/45cc) and makes our range look stronger b/c those rare pair/combodraw hands we could have we would generally jam on the flop as our equity would be much higher. jamming will stack the odd AK and a8, flatting wont b/c a lot of cards scare players (needlessly...QJT,club).

this for me
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« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2011, 02:18:24 PM »

being nitty i can get my head around "not folding bottom set" or "jamming coz if its a cooler so be it". totally understand it being correct play on line when playing many tables and you just move on. but surely in a live situation when you are a long way from home there has to be better spots.
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