Ruling - right to see hand?

[titaniumbean]

This nonsense can get stopped at a stroke at DTD, as all the games are dealer dealt.

If the person who is first to show pisses about and doesn't muck or show, then the dealer reaches over and either turns their cards over or (even better) mucks their hand and awards the pot to the other player.

...and kicks them in the nuts?

yes yes pls, pls kick people in the nuts!!!! plsssss

[david3103]

This is an excerpt from Caro and Cookes rules and has pretty much been adopted by the TDA  (the rules which DTD's are based on). It contradicts Roberts Rules which is widely used to run alongside TDA rules. It is probably just a matter of time before RR changes to this imo.

ORDER OF SHOWDOWN.
Upon completion of action on the final betting round, the dealer shall ask the players to show their hands. If more than one player contests a pot through the final betting round, the pot will be awarded to the best hand pursuant to the rules of the game upon a showdown of hands. If there has been a bet but no raise on the final betting round, then the player who made the bet shall show his hand first, followed by other players still contesting the pot, in clockwise rotation. If there has been a bet and raise or multiple raises on the final betting round, then the person who made the final raise shall show his hand first. If there has been no bet on the final round then the showdown begins with the player who had the obligation of first action on the final betting round.

PROBABLE WINNER AT SHOWDOWN.
In the interests of efficiency and speeding up the game, a player who is reasonably certain he has the winning hand should turn over his hand immediately, regardless of the order of showdown. If a player does so, then other players at the showdown who can beat that hand should also turn their hands over immediately.

SHOW ALL CARDS.
All cards in a player’s hand must be shown face-up on the table to be awarded any part of the pot if contested.

READING HANDS.
At showdown the dealer shall read all hands where cards are exposed and laid on the table face-up. However the dealer shall never ask a player to turn up all his cards and shall only read cards that are shown. The dealer shall not read hands that are exposed but not laid on the table. The hand is to be read according to the exposed cards only. If it appears that a hand which does not have all cards exposed is entitled to the pot, the dealer shall advise that player that he must see a complete hand to award the pot. The winning hand must have all cards exposed and accounted for. If a player who loses the pot exposes only part of his hand, the dealer shall kill it without exposing the rest of the hand.

CARDS SPEAK.
A hand that is turned over at the showdown is ranked according to the cards that are in it. If the hand is turned over then an incorrect assessment of a hand’s rank or a verbal concession is not binding at showdown–the cards speak for themselves. If a player verbally misdeclares his hand, and has a better hand than he declares, then the dealer shall point this out if he notices it, but the dealer’s failure to notice it shall not entitle a player to play the higher hand once the board has been destroyed. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard his hand is unethical and will result in forfeiture of the pot. If a player verbally declares a better hand than he has, causing an opponent to muck his hand and if there is ANY suspicion that such declaration was an intentional ploy; the floorperson at his discretion may award the pot to the player who mucked his hand. Any player at the table may–and should–read a hand which is exposed face up on the table if he sees that the hand is misread and the pot about to be improperly awarded. A player shall not read a hand that is exposed so that he can see it but which is not laid face up on the table, nor shall a player encourage any other player to turn his hand face-up so that it is eligible for the pot.

TIED HANDS.
In the case of one or more tied hands at the showdown, the pot shall be divided accordingly proportionately, with odd chips allocated as set above. Suits shall in no way influence awarding any part of a pot.

SHOWDOWN WITH SIDEPOTS.
If one or more players are all-in in a multi-way contested pot, then the side pots shall be awarded first. If there is one all-in player eligible for the main pot only then he shall show his hand last. If there are multiple sidepots then those participating for the last sidepot shall show their hands down first, followed by those involved in the next-to-last sidepot, etc., until the main pot is awarded.

REQUESTS TO SEE A CALLED HAND.
Players shall not be entitled to see a called hand except in cases where there is a reasonable suspicion of collusion, in which case the floorperson shall be called over for examination of the called hand. This is contrary to the traditional rule. However the traditional rule, which was designed to prevent collusion, has not served its original purpose. Asking to see called hands slows down the game, causes resentment and impedes action. The right to see a called hand is limited to situations where a floorperson is present for the request. The purpose of this rule is to protect against collusion, not to satisfy a player’s curiosity or get a read on a player’s style of play, or worst of all, to intentionally irritate a player. Abuse of this rule is very bad for poker as it kills action and causes resentment. There is no right to see a called losing hand under any circumstances in head’s up play.
The order of showdown shall be followed, if a player reveals a winning hand outside of the order of showdown any right to request a hand to be shown shall be forfeited.

KILLING LOSING HANDS.
No pot shall be awarded until all losing hands have been mucked or killed.

PROTECTING INTEREST IN THE POT.
A player with a hand he believes to be the winning hand is responsible to hold onto his own hand until the pot is awarded. No player with an interest in the pot should release his hand to the dealer until his portion of the pot has been pushed to him.

PUSHING THE POT.
The dealer shall gather in all cards except the winning hand, then push the pot to the player who holds the winning hand, then collect the cards from the player who won the pot. After all losing hands have been mucked, the winning hand shall remain face-up until the pot is awarded. In button games, the dealer shall then advance the button. A player shall never be permitted to reach into the center of the table and pull the pot to himself.

SHOW ONE, SHOW ALL.
If after final action a hand is shown to one player at the table, then any other player at the table may ask to see the hand, and it shall be shown. If during the course of play of the hand a player flashes his hand to another player before mucking it, any player may ask that the hand be shown to all at the table, but it shall not be shown until after the end of the hand. Once the hand is mixed in the muck, however, the dealer shall not retrieve it. Upon request by a player who was dealt into the hand, if a hand has been shown to one but not all, the dealer shall protect the muck so that the exposed hand cannot be stuffed into it before being shown to all. Show One, Show All is part of poker’s tradition.

Original question answered - thanks.

[Woodsey]

i actually think verbal declaration is anything but bad etiquette.

If you have called and your opponent hesitates, then announcing your hand just lets them tell you if its good or bad. They give you the nod, you showcthey muck gg. OK so some people are gonna slow roll or whatever but just take a mental note

That's different to the following though:

1: "One pair"
2: "Me too"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "What's yours?"
1: "I've got a king"
2: "Me too.  What's your kicker?"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "It's not good"
1: "Mine neither"
2: "I reckon it's yours"
1: "I wouldn't be so sure"
Dealer: "Is someone going to show to claim the pot?"
1: "You got the ten kicker?"
2: "Yeah, is it good?"
1: "I thought you did, sigh"
2: "So it's good or have you got the Jack?"
1: "Yeah"
2: "Yeah what, you've got the Jack or it's good"
1: "The Jack would be good"
2: "Thought you had it, but had to call"
Alex: "Sod this, I'm off to play the .50/1 game"

To be quite frank i couldnt care less if they show or not, the only times im stubborn is if its been a weird hand and ive hero'd  - ive paid to see and i wanna see please (if they muck thats fine too)

As for being embarrased about your hand  - lol just stop playing

So many seem to be embarrassed, I don't understand what else it could be?  Get to the showdown, show your cards as you're meant to to claim the pot.  Don't slowroll, don't piss about.

lol the convo - tilted just reading it!

LOL Boshi, but that really does happen a lot.

[The Camel]

i actually think verbal declaration is anything but bad etiquette.

If you have called and your opponent hesitates, then announcing your hand just lets them tell you if its good or bad. They give you the nod, you showcthey muck gg. OK so some people are gonna slow roll or whatever but just take a mental note

That's different to the following though:

1: "One pair"
2: "Me too"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "What's yours?"
1: "I've got a king"
2: "Me too.  What's your kicker?"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "It's not good"
1: "Mine neither"
2: "I reckon it's yours"
1: "I wouldn't be so sure"
Dealer: "Is someone going to show to claim the pot?"
1: "You got the ten kicker?"
2: "Yeah, is it good?"
1: "I thought you did, sigh"
2: "So it's good or have you got the Jack?"
1: "Yeah"
2: "Yeah what, you've got the Jack or it's good"
1: "The Jack would be good"
2: "Thought you had it, but had to call"
Alex: "Sod this, I'm off to play the .50/1 game"

To be quite frank i couldnt care less if they show or not, the only times im stubborn is if its been a weird hand and ive hero'd  - ive paid to see and i wanna see please (if they muck thats fine too)

As for being embarrased about your hand  - lol just stop playing

So many seem to be embarrassed, I don't understand what else it could be?  Get to the showdown, show your cards as you're meant to to claim the pot.  Don't slowroll, don't piss about.

lol the convo - tilted just reading it!

LOL Boshi, but that really does happen a lot.

Boshi is never embarrassed to show his hand, because if he's got to showdown, he's got the nuts.

[titaniumbean]

i actually think verbal declaration is anything but bad etiquette.

If you have called and your opponent hesitates, then announcing your hand just lets them tell you if its good or bad. They give you the nod, you showcthey muck gg. OK so some people are gonna slow roll or whatever but just take a mental note

That's different to the following though:

1: "One pair"
2: "Me too"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "What's yours?"
1: "I've got a king"
2: "Me too.  What's your kicker?"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "It's not good"
1: "Mine neither"
2: "I reckon it's yours"
1: "I wouldn't be so sure"
Dealer: "Is someone going to show to claim the pot?"
1: "You got the ten kicker?"
2: "Yeah, is it good?"
1: "I thought you did, sigh"
2: "So it's good or have you got the Jack?"
1: "Yeah"
2: "Yeah what, you've got the Jack or it's good"
1: "The Jack would be good"
2: "Thought you had it, but had to call"
1: "Oh, I haven't got the Jack..."
Alex: "Sod this, I'm off to play the .50/1 game"

To be quite frank i couldnt care less if they show or not, the only times im stubborn is if its been a weird hand and ive hero'd  - ive paid to see and i wanna see please (if they muck thats fine too)

As for being embarrased about your hand  - lol just stop playing

So many seem to be embarrassed, I don't understand what else it could be?  Get to the showdown, show your cards as you're meant to to claim the pot.  Don't slowroll, don't piss about.

Take a bow son

[kinboshi]

i actually think verbal declaration is anything but bad etiquette.

If you have called and your opponent hesitates, then announcing your hand just lets them tell you if its good or bad. They give you the nod, you showcthey muck gg. OK so some people are gonna slow roll or whatever but just take a mental note

That's different to the following though:

1: "One pair"
2: "Me too"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "What's yours?"
1: "I've got a king"
2: "Me too.  What's your kicker?"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "It's not good"
1: "Mine neither"
2: "I reckon it's yours"
1: "I wouldn't be so sure"
Dealer: "Is someone going to show to claim the pot?"
1: "You got the ten kicker?"
2: "Yeah, is it good?"
1: "I thought you did, sigh"
2: "So it's good or have you got the Jack?"
1: "Yeah"
2: "Yeah what, you've got the Jack or it's good"
1: "The Jack would be good"
2: "Thought you had it, but had to call"
Alex: "Sod this, I'm off to play the .50/1 game"

To be quite frank i couldnt care less if they show or not, the only times im stubborn is if its been a weird hand and ive hero'd  - ive paid to see and i wanna see please (if they muck thats fine too)

As for being embarrased about your hand  - lol just stop playing

So many seem to be embarrassed, I don't understand what else it could be?  Get to the showdown, show your cards as you're meant to to claim the pot.  Don't slowroll, don't piss about.

lol the convo - tilted just reading it!

LOL Boshi, but that really does happen a lot.

Boshi is never embarrassed to show his hand, because if he's got to showdown, he's got the nuts.

Always have the nuts.

[Cf]

dik9: I like the rules you posted above. Esp the bit about not being able to request to see a hand. I've only glanced at it on my phone so apologies if I missed it but it doesn't seem to answer the situation in another thread. Namely player a wishes to muck but player b doesn't want to show before he sees player as cards. The rules here state if someone shows out of turn (encouraged, and rightly so) then the right to see players before hands is forfeited. But it doesn't seem to cover the situation of a player wishing to muck in turn despite no hand yet being shown.

[dik9]

I am restraining from that thread as I had a difference of opinion with another TD over it lol. I wont comment until we have discussed our points as I mainly deal with tournaments and my opinion differs slightly regarding this situation in cash.

[George2Loose]

Reminds me of this:

[outragous76]

thats amazing

nice work george

[Cf]

Not often I'd agree with Hellmuth but he was right and Bellend was wrong.

[boldie]

Wow, that's unreal...

[StuartHopkin]

So many seem to be embarrassed

Every time i play 

[Claw75]

Not often I'd agree with Hellmuth but he was right and Bellend was wrong.

I really don't understand why Belland is so reluctant to turn over his cards once Hellmuth has mucked: it's not as if he had a complete bag of spanners.

[dik9]

Half a dozen of one and 6 of the other.
Hellmuth never mucked, and his hand is still live (he is supposed to show first), saying "you win" does not constitute a muck.
It depends if they are using last man standing rules or have to show to win pot.
Hellmuth is right though  when I first dealt cash, etiquette was he could concede the pot that way by mucking, but Bellande wouldn't have to show, it is ironic how TV cash games have influenced normal cash games (tv cash games seem to follow tournament rules)