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Author Topic: theory - wrong table position with the bad player plo  (Read 1643 times)
doubleup
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« on: March 09, 2011, 03:57:32 PM »



I've decided to stop swapping coolers with regs and rigorously table select plo 6 max.  I'm doing ok finding games but often find myself on the right hand side of the bad player.  Anyone got any thoughts on the best way to play these situations.  I'm finding that I'm just being loose passive to try to play pots with the bad player and then finding myself oop with a reg on the button and the bad player in between.  Should I just tighten up and play broadway/high nutty type hands in the hope of getting paid by the bad player with a 2nd nuts type hand?
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TheFallen
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2011, 04:02:22 PM »

no one else seems to be biting so I'll offer some random thoughts although i dont know the right answer.

- it depends what type of fish it is. PLO fish are far more extreme than NL fish. While in NL it tends to almost all be passive stations, lots of PLO's greatest fish are ridic spewtards who are 3bet happy in all the wrong spots (hello JorgeArias http://www.pokertableratings.com/stars-player-search/jorgearias).

-OOP with spewtards you just have to play good hands, nothing else to it or you will just leak money left and right. Overcalling AAxx, KKxx, AKxx is a pretty good idea when someone rasies and the bad player is in the bliinds as they will 3bet a lot and will make a lot of poor decisions with dominated type hands when it gets back to you and you stick in the 4-ball. If you 3bet right away they will simply fold the hand that they otherwise might 3bet.

-OOP with passive stations (in a vacume) then you don't necessarily need to play tighter but it is important to adapt your opening ranges. Work out if they are trappy fit or fold players or if they are 'ill never let go of top pair' players. You should be opening different ranges vs. each of them.

Vs fit or fold guy we want more drawing hands that we can barrel with equity and get him off top pair/2 pair etc. Its less valuable playing a big ace type hand oop with this guy as we are unlikely to ever get paid off 3 streets with a big two pair or similar(if he pays the 3rd street we are probably beat). Obviously we will play strong big card hands but in general we will make money from this guy by getting him to fold!

Vs 'ill never let go of top pair' type guys then you should be eliminating smaller drawing hands from ur range as we have zeroy fold equity with this player and the hand is weak on it own merits. Now however we can open weaker stuff like AK97r AQ45r for value in certain spots (say blind on blind or when remaining players are tight and its likely we will isolate). We can open more or this stuff as we know this guy is unlikely to get away from Ace, King or Queen high flop when he is dominated and we can get a lot more value from our hand than we should usually be able to.  

(vs fit or fold we want more equity ridden barreling hands, vs station we want more thin value hands)


-when you sit in a game and the fish only has 2 seats to his right ask yourself "whats the likelyhood the other remaining seat will be filled by a) very strong reg b) average-weaker reg c) another fish?" Clearly in cases a) and c) we want to leave the seat to our right free. In case b) it might be worth sitting one seat removed from the fish as this gives us the most chances to play in position vs. them.

-try and re-exploit regs who are opening up their game in an effort to play with the fish (in the same way you felt they are putting pressure on you sometimes).

-if a particularly strong reg is picking up that he can exploit you on the button then the game is probably not worth playing. Its far better to find a game with 5 weaker, auto piloting regs than to play a game where you may be getting exploited more than its possible for you to exploit a random fish.  




« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 04:11:35 PM by TheFallen » Logged

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cambridgealex
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2011, 04:38:52 PM »

^sicko!
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GreekStein
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2011, 04:46:35 PM »

Basically that post just says:

- It's opponent dependent (& depends on their style).
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2011, 04:50:14 PM »

Basically that post just says:

- It's opponent dependent (& depends on their style).


errr not really!
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GreekStein
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2011, 05:10:53 PM »

Basically that post just says:

- It's opponent dependent (& depends on their style).


errr not really!

Well ok I should give it more credit as it's a good post and explains how to adapt though it basically is just about adapting.

Vs Fish in general, we don't often have enough gametime with them to assess what we think regs are doing. A lot of fish go broke quick and leave.

Vs huge longterm losing fish where everyone is fighting for that fish's money I think you want to be fucking crazy so that other regs wont get out of line vs you and you can isolate the fish a lot more.
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2011, 05:16:44 PM »

Lol@ Ged's detailed analysis of optimum way of playing vs fish and regs vs this

I think you want to be fucking crazy so that other regs wont get out of line vs you and you can isolate the fish a lot more.

succinct and to the point.

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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2011, 05:22:09 PM »

Lol@ Ged's detailed analysis of optimum way of playing vs fish and regs vs this

I think you want to be fucking crazy so that other regs wont get out of line vs you and you can isolate the fish a lot more.

succinct and to the point.



was pretty much from a discussion with the crab on msn. Do you disagree with it?
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2011, 05:31:11 PM »

Lol@ Ged's detailed analysis of optimum way of playing vs fish and regs vs this

I think you want to be fucking crazy so that other regs wont get out of line vs you and you can isolate the fish a lot more.

succinct and to the point.



was pretty much from a discussion with the crab on msn. Do you disagree with it?

no, was just funny. you get some interesting dynamics at DTD where there's one really good spot on the table, and whenever they limp, or open, the nexttoact reg always isolates, then the next reg knows whats going on, but is stuck, because if they cold 4b then they lose the fish, other option is just to cold call a whole bunch of 3bets. I sometimes wonder whether its better to be out of position to all the sharks and in position to the fish.
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GreekStein
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« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2011, 05:36:35 PM »

Lol@ Ged's detailed analysis of optimum way of playing vs fish and regs vs this

I think you want to be fucking crazy so that other regs wont get out of line vs you and you can isolate the fish a lot more.

succinct and to the point.



was pretty much from a discussion with the crab on msn. Do you disagree with it?

no, was just funny. you get some interesting dynamics at DTD where there's one really good spot on the table, and whenever they limp, or open, the nexttoact reg always isolates, then the next reg knows whats going on, but is stuck, because if they cold 4b then they lose the fish, other option is just to cold call a whole bunch of 3bets. I sometimes wonder whether its better to be out of position to all the sharks and in position to the fish.

I rather be in position vs the sharks.
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ACE2M
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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2011, 05:46:01 PM »

no one else seems to be biting so I'll offer some random thoughts although i dont know the right answer.

- it depends what type of fish it is. PLO fish are far more extreme than NL fish. While in NL it tends to almost all be passive stations, lots of PLO's greatest fish are ridic spewtards who are 3bet happy in all the wrong spots (hello JorgeArias http://www.pokertableratings.com/stars-player-search/jorgearias).

-OOP with spewtards you just have to play good hands, nothing else to it or you will just leak money left and right. Overcalling AAxx, KKxx, AKxx is a pretty good idea when someone rasies and the bad player is in the bliinds as they will 3bet a lot and will make a lot of poor decisions with dominated type hands when it gets back to you and you stick in the 4-ball. If you 3bet right away they will simply fold the hand that they otherwise might 3bet.

-OOP with passive stations (in a vacume) then you don't necessarily need to play tighter but it is important to adapt your opening ranges. Work out if they are trappy fit or fold players or if they are 'ill never let go of top pair' players. You should be opening different ranges vs. each of them.

Vs fit or fold guy we want more drawing hands that we can barrel with equity and get him off top pair/2 pair etc. Its less valuable playing a big ace type hand oop with this guy as we are unlikely to ever get paid off 3 streets with a big two pair or similar(if he pays the 3rd street we are probably beat). Obviously we will play strong big card hands but in general we will make money from this guy by getting him to fold!

Vs 'ill never let go of top pair' type guys then you should be eliminating smaller drawing hands from ur range as we have zeroy fold equity with this player and the hand is weak on it own merits. Now however we can open weaker stuff like AK97r AQ45r for value in certain spots (say blind on blind or when remaining players are tight and its likely we will isolate). We can open more or this stuff as we know this guy is unlikely to get away from Ace, King or Queen high flop when he is dominated and we can get a lot more value from our hand than we should usually be able to.  

(vs fit or fold we want more equity ridden barreling hands, vs station we want more thin value hands)


-when you sit in a game and the fish only has 2 seats to his right ask yourself "whats the likelyhood the other remaining seat will be filled by a) very strong reg b) average-weaker reg c) another fish?" Clearly in cases a) and c) we want to leave the seat to our right free. In case b) it might be worth sitting one seat removed from the fish as this gives us the most chances to play in position vs. them.

-try and re-exploit regs who are opening up their game in an effort to play with the fish (in the same way you felt they are putting pressure on you sometimes).

-if a particularly strong reg is picking up that he can exploit you on the button then the game is probably not worth playing. Its far better to find a game with 5 weaker, auto piloting regs than to play a game where you may be getting exploited more than its possible for you to exploit a random fish.  






hey, thats me.
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doubleup
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2011, 08:41:46 PM »


Work out if they are trappy fit or fold players or if they are 'ill never let go of top pair' players. You should be opening different ranges vs. each of them.


tnks def wasn't thinking about that enough
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2011, 10:15:06 PM »

good post fallen.

I agree completely with cos's point, when there is a big fish and people are trying to take it in turns to fuck him, I open myself right up and start to try fuck with the regs so they just sit and wait to smash a flop vs the fish and I can pick up every pot in between and find myself naturally ISO'd vs the fish as 95% of online regs will sit happy and let you do this. when you got a guy spewing off you can never go far wrong going completely batshit mental when there are 4 dead-ish seats at the table lol

If it's just a random fish we don't know much about like the long fallen post says I just see what they up too, if they are 3betting me relentlessly I just cut the bottom ~20% off my opening range and then 4bet a lot more (pretty stnd adjustment)

If they are ridic cally I loose some of the low-card hands out of my PF range (4589 in the CO and stuff etc) and play my high card hands a lot faster - they just tend to dominate more and you can go for thinner value post a bit more comfortabley imo

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