UK to start taxing poker winnings? :(

[doubleup]

Taxing gambling would merely force gambling/poker etc underground.

Taxing things doesnt force them underground.

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned.  Camel keeps moaning about not paying tax but never does anything about it.

[AndrewT]

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned. 

Good point, that.

What's the difference between not paying tax on money won grinding poker on the internet, and not paying tax on money won in a prop bet between you and your mate.

[outragous76]

Taxing gambling would merely force gambling/poker etc underground.

Taxing things doesnt force them underground.

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned.  Camel keeps moaning about not paying tax but never does anything about it.

really?

outside of revenue, tax is used as a disincentive to shape society. In this case it would act as both. The type of people who gamble/play poker would sooner give their money away than pay a new tax on it.

So you have a choice, 10 people can play poker in a licencsed venue - if you win a cash session you give up 25% of it.

or 10 people can play at home/ in a pub upstairs/ pool hall out back etc etc! But you dont think it would go underground? Ok, i think ill stick with my line

Its a known fact that politicians rarely assess the full environmental impact of a tax before its application, leading to the many historic fuck ups of mal-levvied taxes over the years

I am happy to discuss this point all day by the way

[doubleup]

Taxing gambling would merely force gambling/poker etc underground.

Taxing things doesnt force them underground.

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned.  Camel keeps moaning about not paying tax but never does anything about it.

really?

outside of revenue, tax is used as a disincentive to shape society. In this case it would act as both. The type of people who gamble/play poker would sooner give their money away than pay a new tax on it.

So you have a choice, 10 people can play poker in a licencsed venue - if you win a cash session you give up 25% of it.

or 10 people can play at home/ in a pub upstairs/ pool hall out back etc etc! But you dont think it would go underground? Ok, i think ill stick with my line

Its a known fact that politicians rarely assess the full environmental impact of a tax before its application, leading to the many historic fuck ups of mal-levvied taxes over the years

I am happy to discuss this point all day by the way

income tax hasn't forced work underground, corporation tax hasnt forced business underground, vat hasnt forced retail sales underground etc

a tax inspires avoidance efforts, but the extent of this will be the risk (possible jail)/reward ratio of the tax in question.

[kinboshi]

Taxing gambling would merely force gambling/poker etc underground.

Taxing things doesnt force them underground.

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned.  Camel keeps moaning about not paying tax but never does anything about it.

really?

outside of revenue, tax is used as a disincentive to shape society. In this case it would act as both. The type of people who gamble/play poker would sooner give their money away than pay a new tax on it.

So you have a choice, 10 people can play poker in a licencsed venue - if you win a cash session you give up 25% of it.

or 10 people can play at home/ in a pub upstairs/ pool hall out back etc etc! But you dont think it would go underground? Ok, i think ill stick with my line

Its a known fact that politicians rarely assess the full environmental impact of a tax before its application, leading to the many historic fuck ups of mal-levvied taxes over the years

I am happy to discuss this point all day by the way

income tax hasn't forced work underground, corporation tax hasnt forced business underground, vat hasnt forced retail sales underground etc

a tax inspires avoidance efforts, but the extent of this will be the risk (possible jail)/reward ratio of the tax in question.

Just ask Vodafone.

[outragous76]

Taxing gambling would merely force gambling/poker etc underground.

Taxing things doesnt force them underground.

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned.  Camel keeps moaning about not paying tax but never does anything about it.

really?

outside of revenue, tax is used as a disincentive to shape society. In this case it would act as both. The type of people who gamble/play poker would sooner give their money away than pay a new tax on it.

So you have a choice, 10 people can play poker in a licencsed venue - if you win a cash session you give up 25% of it.

or 10 people can play at home/ in a pub upstairs/ pool hall out back etc etc! But you dont think it would go underground? Ok, i think ill stick with my line

Its a known fact that politicians rarely assess the full environmental impact of a tax before its application, leading to the many historic fuck ups of mal-levvied taxes over the years

I am happy to discuss this point all day by the way

income tax hasn't forced work underground, corporation tax hasnt forced business underground, vat hasnt forced retail sales underground etc

a tax inspires avoidance efforts, but the extent of this will be the risk (possible jail)/reward ratio of the tax in question.

your generalised point here is mute as it relates to business

however, it does shape business decisions, such as HSBC condidering leaving the UK for Hong Kong - so Im pretty sure you are wrong

also what about banks locating in the UK for the last 15 years due to favourable tax systems

[gouty]

The govt. have no clue as far as gambling goes imo. I play poker and own a betting shop and they have totally crushed the independent bookies with extra/unfair costings for licenses.

Some plank decided to class brick and mortar poker rake as casino drop profit and therefore taxable as such. So when the dealer pops that £7 from your plo/nl pot into the box its likely that £3.50 is off to HMRC as its gross profit tax.

I think we worked out that our local Bristol plo game rakes over 150k pa.

plenty of tax that.

alex

[doubleup]

your generalised point here is mute as it relates to business

however, it does shape business decisions, such as HSBC condidering leaving the UK for Hong Kong - so Im pretty sure you are wrong

also what about banks locating in the UK for the last 15 years due to favourable tax systems

I think you mean moot [/spelling nazi]

As I said a tax will inspire efforts to avoid it, however a government reacts to avoidance/evasion with changes in legislation.  Your original point was that tax would drive poker underground, you still havent provided an example of an activity that has been driven underground as a resullt of tax.

[AndrewT]

When I correct people's spelling, I make sure I get my quote blocks right.

Surely gambling companies moving offshore is the equivalent of going underground - they're continuing to do what they did before, but do it in a place where they are out of the reach of the taxman.

[George2Loose]

Prohibition in the us when alcohol was banned drove the trade underground.

[DaveShoelace]

Prohibition in the us when alcohol was banned drove the trade underground.

Prohibition is outright banning a trade, so of course it will drive it underground, this discussion is about taxing a trade.

Yes, I've been watching Boardwalk Empire too.

[Boba Fett]

Its a known fact that politicians rarely assess the full environmental impact of a tax before its application, leading to the many historic fuck ups of mal-levvied taxes over the years

I am happy to discuss this point all day by the way

Examples plz.

Not that I doubt you, Im just interested in what the previous fuck ups were

[doubleup]

Surely gambling companies moving offshore is the equivalent of going underground - they're continuing to do what they did before, but do it in a place where they are out of the reach of the taxman.

Don't think so -they are just moving to the best place for them to carry out their business.  If the uk reacted by eg banning them from doing business with uk citizens from offshore, they would consider whether the costs justified returning the uk part back onshore.  Anyway I'm still waiting for an example of something driven underground by a tax.

[AndrewT]

Surely gambling companies moving offshore is the equivalent of going underground - they're continuing to do what they did before, but do it in a place where they are out of the reach of the taxman.

Don't think so -they are just moving to the best place for them to carry out their business.  If the uk reacted by eg banning them from doing business with uk citizens from offshore, they would consider whether the costs justified returning the uk part back onshore.  Anyway I'm still waiting for an example of something driven underground by a tax.

Isn't 'going underground' just 'doing the best thing for your business'.

You make a calculation as to which is better for you - 'legimate business + tax' or 'underground business + hassle of not being legit'.

[doubleup]

Surely gambling companies moving offshore is the equivalent of going underground - they're continuing to do what they did before, but do it in a place where they are out of the reach of the taxman.

Don't think so -they are just moving to the best place for them to carry out their business.  If the uk reacted by eg banning them from doing business with uk citizens from offshore, they would consider whether the costs justified returning the uk part back onshore.  Anyway I'm still waiting for an example of something driven underground by a tax.

Isn't 'going underground' just 'doing the best thing for your business'.

You make a calculation as to which is better for you - 'legimate business + tax' or 'underground business + hassle of not being legit'.

Yes I agree ppl do risk/reward calculations, but usually the goverment in question ensures that the risk is too high in comparison to the legitimate rewards.  The point of the tax is to raise money.