Our War - Ambush

[celtic]

Normally not interested in this, but watched into the hornets nest, twice! Great viewing.

[titaniumbean]

BBC 3 now
Return to death valley .....very intense viewing again!

yeh real wtf moment when the ied goes off inbetween the two guys with cameras.

pretty sickening introduction to the place aswell.


Really makes you wonder about the mental position they must be in once they return from tours of duty. Blows the mind....

[mondatoo]

BBC 3 now
Return to death valley .....very intense viewing again!

yeh real wtf moment when the ied goes off inbetween the two guys with cameras.

pretty sickening introduction to the place aswell.


Really makes you wonder about the mental position they must be in once they return from tours of duty. Blows the mind....

Very much this, there were soldiers in the previous series that had to be discharged due to mental health issues. 

Just watched the 2nd episode, I don't really like watching it tbh. It's very well done by the BBC but is extremely intense and emotional viewing, ignorance is bliss as they say. However, I just feel like it's the least I could do by taking the time to watch it out of respect for there bravery, happily admit I'd be the last to sign up.   

[mondatoo]

The journal of Lt Mark Evison who was the focus of the third episode was published in The Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/5820679/Mark-Evison-We-are-walking-a-tightrope-in-Afghanistan.html

[Acidmouse]

Watched them all, not really a great fan of the forces but jebus they really are under it there. Under equipped, not enough intelligence, lead into missions that are frankly pointless, dangerous situations. The one where they were getting ambushed from all sides and it took ages for the poor solider who got shot to be taken out anyone thinking of joining the forces needs to watch these and think again..

[Geo the Sarge]

Watched them all, not really a great fan of the forces but jebus they really are under it there. Under equipped, not enough intelligence, lead into missions that are frankly pointless, dangerous situations. The one where they were getting ambushed from all sides and it took ages for the poor solider who got shot to be taken out anyone thinking of joining the forces needs to watch these and think again..

Good post Acid.

I actually discussed this very episode with others at the weekend, I was simply aghast at what was happening on screen and as a former soldier it made my blood boil.

Am at work so will elaborate when I get home tonight.

Geo

[Acidmouse]

As someone who does not really know much about soldiers I was shocked that in 2012 they are being lead into death traps in countries where the locals know every nook and cranny akin to Vietnam. You got no chance.

[titaniumbean]

with modern day technology how the fuck cant they always communicate.


'oh the antenna broke'  we're under it.... wat.


why does a part have to be driven over 4k IED's to get to your base, helicopter fly above drop cable = win no?


maybe carry a satellite phone, yes they're expensive but you're the military if you're not winning our money isn't going to be worth that much anyway.

[Geo the Sarge]

with modern day technology how the fuck cant they always communicate.


'oh the antenna broke'  we're under it.... wat.


why does a part have to be driven over 4k IED's to get to your base, helicopter fly above drop cable = win no?


maybe carry a satellite phone, yes they're expensive but you're the military if you're not winning our money isn't going to be worth that much anyway.

It was the satelitte comms which they had broken the antenna off, ordinary issue radio equipment is basically useless out there. Why no reserve, I haven't a clue, bad admin? not enough spares?

I too found it worrying they were talking 4 weeks for replacement and that it would come by road. Being in an outpost I would expect them to be having replen runs at least weekly, and by helicopter.

A bit of artistic license used for the show methinks.

Geo

[Geo the Sarge]

Watched them all, not really a great fan of the forces but jebus they really are under it there. Under equipped, not enough intelligence, lead into missions that are frankly pointless, dangerous situations. The one where they were getting ambushed from all sides and it took ages for the poor solider who got shot to be taken out anyone thinking of joining the forces needs to watch these and think again..

Good post Acid.

I actually discussed this very episode with others at the weekend, I was simply aghast at what was happening on screen and as a former soldier it made my blood boil.

Am at work so will elaborate when I get home tonight.

Geo

Am still putting together a reply to this acid, I want to get it right and it's taken longer than I thought and probably boring for some.

Geo

[Geo the Sarge]

Watched them all, not really a great fan of the forces but jebus they really are under it there. Under equipped, not enough intelligence, lead into missions that are frankly pointless, dangerous situations. The one where they were getting ambushed from all sides and it took ages for the poor solider who got shot to be taken out anyone thinking of joining the forces needs to watch these and think again..

This could be a long and boring reply, some may even think wtf? It is Based purely on past experience of 23 years as an infantryman who finished their time 11 years ago. I mentioned this to Monda and Dan at the weekend and importantly also had a good chat with jjandellis who is still a serving SNCO.

This is based on my own experiences during training and operations, it’s not intended as a “back in the day we were so much better” post.

I watched the episode detailing the ambush and loss of the Platoon Commander and could not believe what I was watching, was this really a British Army platoon? So disorganised and helpless as to what to do next.

As I write I am watching it back to reconfirm some points:

We had a Platoon Commander who had decided to take a patrol into a known danger spot, despite reservations from his platoon Sergeant, more than likely the most experienced man there.

The Pl Comd still carries on with the patrol despite knowing that one of their most vital pieces of equipment, the satellite comms is useless, there only real link to assistance should anything go wrong. I mentioned earlier my doubts as to whether they would have had to wait 4 weeks for a replacement, however stranger things happen

The words of the Sergeant seem to indicate that it was the Pl Comds decision to complete the patrol, would this sort of action really be decided by the lowest ranking officer?

As it happens, they do get into a spot and due to the lack of comms, it appears that panic sets in when the Pl comd gets shot. There then follows scenes of complete disarray and imho a complete breakdown of control by NCO’s


I wrote this on my Troops thread in August 2008:

The most common question asked was “why do soldiers always have to shout at each other?” Obviously they were referring to the many films and TV programmes where they see the soldiers shouting all the time and of course, they are correct, we did shout a lot of the time, in camp or on exercise and of course on operations.

And of course there are good reasons for it. The main reasons are to ensure an order is heard in the heat of battle, it is also designed to get an instant reaction, the correct reaction. Therefore as with anything else we need to practise this. Most commonly it starts with drill.

This is the first thing that a soldier is taught when he joins the Army. It is designed for the soldier to respond quickly and correctly to words of command. It also ensures that the whole section is responding together, that they all understand the commands, and also teaches them timing. For various drill movements there are pauses which must be maintained by all the squad. To see a squad out of sync as they go through drill routines is still one of the funniest things I’ve seen. A bit like watching someone walking down the road not paying attention and they take the “raised paving slab” tumble. We laugh, we know we shouldn’t but we laugh.

This method is carried onto the various other subjects that a soldier learns throughout his career such as weapons lessons. Again we call them drills. The actions required are taught and then repeatedly barked to the soldiers until they all react correctly and each action becomes second nature to the soldier. In the heat of battle, soldiers act instinctively and correctly, because it’s built into them and is practised over and over again.

It’s when something different happens, something not quite by the book, that can often stop a soldier, or section in their tracks. You see, the problem is that we train to always be the victor, no different from sportsmen, no one trains to fail. The fact is quite often not everything goes to plan.

[Geo the Sarge]

Before I move on regards my frustrations on what I was seeing.

As technology has improved over the years, the military have generally adapted and in lots of occassions the advancement in technology hads been driven by military needs.

Communication has been one of these areas and indeed it is recognised that the technology used for our smart phones/pc's/ipads etc today have there origins in military research and advancement.

There are many cases where the British Army has decided to upgrade equipment, they search for what they believe is a suitable replacement, agree some sort of contract and then put it on "trials" for a number of years before issuing to the troops. Too often, by the time it is deemed suitable for the troops there is already a better piece of kit available but the MOD are locked into a contract which is too expensive to cancel and we carry on with lesser equipment.

"Bowman" the basic radio equipment used by the patrols spent something like 7 years in trials before finally being introduced and due to budgets was "phased" in, starting with I believe the Artillery and finally reaching the frontline troops not too long ago. I may even be correct in saying that for infantry it's still only available during operational tours.

Another good (or bad ) example is our anti tank missile system. I moved to our Anti Tank platoon in the mid 90's and the Army had been trialling a replacement for a few years the. it never materaialised

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MILAN

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/uk-abandons-trigat-missile-project-as-delays-worsen/287038.article

In 2005 ended up with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin


Our Artillery had already been using an earlier Javelin system for some years

[Geo the Sarge]

So the platoon get themselves in a bit of a pickle and their comms pack in. This is where the shouting aspect of training should kick in.

What I heard in the programme was a lack of command, no-one standing up saying "ok guys, this is the shit we are in, this is how we are going to get it sorted."

No attempt to take stock, gather all the info by word of mouth, even if it were by creating a talking chain along the line. Yeah the chinese whispers effect could become a hazard but it would be a controlled risk. There was no control.

Comms had improved over the years and there are man to man systems in service which are generally often used. A system where everyone has at least an earpice and all orders can be passed in this way. Had they previously utilised this system before operations and lost the art of communication by voice only, lost the art of barking out orders?

Instead we watched as they took cover in ditches, with little controlled supressive fire and little attempt to put heads together, gather the information required to assess the situation and put together a plan of action.

My guess is that if they had done some training without comms between them, this would have become second nature and control would have been had. They had trained with good comms, had always been able to communicate easily during training. Unfortunately when they were faced with it in reality and comms went down, so did their control, even to the point they are calling in medivac for walking wounded and incorrect heli type.

One of my following paragraphs from that post in August was:

So what happens when we are faced with something we haven’t been trained for, what happens when we suddenly find ourselves outnumbered or we just can’t seem to make headways against what we assume is a weaker enemy?

This is when we find our true heroes. The guys who take the initiative: the guys who can see past the training and look for a way out.

The heroes that day were the Fijian and the other lad who took up the initiative and picked up the Pl comd and carried him back through the burn, over the bridge and to safety in the compound.

These weren't the nco's who should have been exercising control, these were 2 private soldiers who decided that they were going to give their buddy a chance to survive, they realised their leaders had faltered and decided they would take their fate in their own hands, these 2 guys were definite heros on the day.

But for me the most depressing part of the whole programme was the lad they kept returning to, the lad who fumbled with the smoke grenade, ending up throwing it with the pin still in, the lad who then proceeded to have a weapon stoppage, the lad who was telling us he thought that a lot of those in the platoon after that event brains were "fragged" and listening to him couldn't help feeling he was one of them.  He described not settling when returning to UK and began drinking heavily and just wanted to go back to Afghanistan. I felt real sadness for this lad.

The lad we finish the programme with sitting on a plane.................................returning to Afghanistan.

God speed, young man

Geo

[smashedagain]

What unit were they Geo?

Sounds like Pl Sgt should have reminded Pl Comd who is really in charge and gripped him.  But that said, its all conjecture - as even those who have seen the film would not be privvy to other issues in the background and the 'bigger picture'.  I'd also be wary of creative editing too.  Quite a few times I've watched the news aghast of what is reported - when knowing what the ground truth is...so alot of things that appear in the telly/papers I take with a pinch of salt tbh (something that links in well to the misreports spoken about in your other thread) 

I am a little confused about who is actually in charge, Pl Sgt or Pl Comd? It's a bit cheesy but in every war film I have ever seen the Lt is always some young wet nose college type who is always listening to the Sgt who is always the hardened vet with all the experience. If the Pl Comd decides a course of action then the Sgt has to agree.

Get that thread up and running again Geo. I thought it was excellent stuff.

[leethefish]

Your basically correct Jase ....platoon commanders are the boss and most ask the advice listen and take note of all the experience around them.
And yea there normally 20 years old Cambridge Alex types that have chosen an army career!!