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Author Topic: 1/2 - Jacks oop in a double straddled pot  (Read 10459 times)
Mondeoman
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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2011, 04:34:16 PM »

On flop bet 68 to give the illusion you might fold and call it off.  If i had 1.5 pot to stack ratio  and an overpair HU on any flop i dont think id ever fold.
If hes slow playing wp him you just got unlucky.
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EvilPie
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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2011, 04:44:25 PM »

£128 straddles ftmfw!!
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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2011, 04:51:58 PM »

Back to the hand.

I've just had a proper read of the range you've assigned villain and I might have to change my mind.

For some reason I thought you had him as tight. This range looks pretty wide to me and JJ smashes the shit out of it.

Def 3 bet and get it in is the correct line against this range.

Tbh though I can help but think that this game is still 1/2 and I don't want 200 bigs in with JJ.

I'd be looking at this in terms of my roll. If I'm rolled for 1/2 then I'm playing 1/2 so it's 200 bigs.

If I'm rolled for 5/10 and I'm one of the happy double straddlers then obviously I'm fist pumping JJ here with 50 bigs effective.

However if I'm rolled for 5/10 and double straddling a 1/2 game there is no way I'm sat with £400. I'd have minimum £1k with plenty to pull up which makes the whole hand play completely different.
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GreekStein
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« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2011, 05:16:32 PM »

I disagree with mondeoman that we should bet 68 on the flop.

I think 69 is far more optimal as he's likely to think his chances of winning the pot are a lot more sexy and ship it.

P.s. Muckthenuts has obv read ur diary and is being results oriented or levelling.
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2011, 05:27:36 PM »


P.s. Muckthenuts has obv read ur diary and is being results oriented or levelling.

ldo, who hasnt.

ps, dont disagree with mondeoman.
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muckthenuts
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« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2011, 05:32:21 PM »

We could argue that if we feel villian will only 4b AK/JJ+ that there's a case for 3b/folding but i don't really like it. Calling preflop seems terrible to me as we're oop and with stacks postflop we'll either be putting our money in crushed or winning a pot which isn't that large. Similarly with 3b/calling villian described sounds unlikely to put any money in with dominated hands such as TT/AQo. It basically all sounds really godawful bad to me. It feels yuck to let this go to one open but i'm ok to fold this, JJ isn't like a monster to me here.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 05:34:02 PM by muckthenuts » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2011, 05:40:04 PM »

Default for me would be to 3 bet call.  Can flat if you like i guess but you should def not be 3 bet folding in this spot.  If he's tight and he jams your'e not loving it but its still a profitable call.  The point of 3 betting is sometimes he folds (not a disaster) and when he calls you win more.

I would assume i have 40bb not 50 tbh.  A 1-2-4-8 game is effectively as big as a 5/10 game.  You can rarely go wrong getting 50BB in pre with Jacks in a cash game even v a tight player.  Do you think he ever shoves 77/88/99/22 here?  If hes a solid pro he'll be aware of the effective stack he's playing and that you might be attacking his open.  

Just because you think hes playing tight doesnt mean to say he thinks you think hes playing tight.  Maybe he opens AJ thinks your attacking the straddled pot and shoves?  I dunno theres just a lot of hands in my mind he could shove.  If hes in any way decent I dont buy it that hes only shoving QQ+ .  (other week i was playing full ring live got it in for 100bb from Big blind with AK v UTG (a renowned nit and tightest player at the table who wasnt tilting) Board runs out JJ447 and i win the pot - moral of the story players ranges are usually bigger than you give them credit for)

If he flats go broke on any flop with no overcards.  Be wary of Q's - are a slightly safer cards in my experience (i assume he shoves ak prob doesnt flat with kj or worse ks)
Given stack sizes you dont have to c bet that big on the flop maybe < 35% of the pot.  If villain flats 3 bet he prob has a strong holding so don't expect him to bluff you too often.

ALL OF THIS.
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« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2011, 05:48:03 PM »

Fml am I only one not read diary? Still get it in still think a reg opening a dbl straddle should have a wide range
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muckthenuts
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« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2011, 05:59:19 PM »


P.s. Muckthenuts has obv read ur diary and is being results oriented or levelling.

Nah i hadn't, nor any other posts itt before i posted. I actually wrote that he should fold as my very first post itt before thinking info on players to act would be better before deciding. Still think it's a fold though.
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« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2011, 06:05:16 PM »


P.s. Muckthenuts has obv read ur diary and is being results oriented or levelling.

Nah i hadn't, nor any other posts itt before i posted. I actually wrote that he should fold as my very first post itt before thinking info on players to act would be better before deciding. Still think it's a fold though.

in his defence i have read lots of really good pha posts from muckthenuts, but happen to disagree here.
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« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2011, 06:10:02 PM »

Default for me would be to 3 bet call.  Can flat if you like i guess but you should def not be 3 bet folding in this spot.  If he's tight and he jams your'e not loving it but its still a profitable call.  The point of 3 betting is sometimes he folds (not a disaster) and when he calls you win more.

I would assume i have 40bb not 50 tbh.  A 1-2-4-8 game is effectively as big as a 5/10 game.  You can rarely go wrong getting 50BB in pre with Jacks in a cash game even v a tight player.  Do you think he ever shoves 77/88/99/22 here?  If hes a solid pro he'll be aware of the effective stack he's playing and that you might be attacking his open.  

Just because you think hes playing tight doesnt mean to say he thinks you think hes playing tight.  Maybe he opens AJ thinks your attacking the straddled pot and shoves?  I dunno theres just a lot of hands in my mind he could shove.  If hes in any way decent I dont buy it that hes only shoving QQ+ .  (other week i was playing full ring live got it in for 100bb from Big blind with AK v UTG (a renowned nit and tightest player at the table who wasnt tilting) Board runs out JJ447 and i win the pot - moral of the story players ranges are usually bigger than you give them credit for)

If he flats go broke on any flop with no overcards.  Be wary of Q's - are a slightly safer cards in my experience (i assume he shoves ak prob doesnt flat with kj or worse ks)
Given stack sizes you dont have to c bet that big on the flop maybe < 35% of the pot.  If villain flats 3 bet he prob has a strong holding so don't expect him to bluff you too often.

Jolly Good. This is more like what was going through my head.

I 3bet to 105. Villain flat called. I'd now narrow his range to QQ/JJ/TT/99 maybe? I think he'd also flat with KK and AA a decent amount too. Perhaps AQ? I think your paragraph about peoples ranges being larger than we give them credit for is really helpful Keith.

So pot is £223 We have £300 behind.

Flop  two spades Two Clubs

My thoughts here was that I had to bet call it off but not really loving it.

What about a T9x flop? Could we check/fold this?

Why would you c/f T9x ?

Id be betting £105 on that flop and jamming nearly every turn
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« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2011, 06:12:32 PM »

Default for me would be to 3 bet call.  Can flat if you like i guess but you should def not be 3 bet folding in this spot.  If he's tight and he jams your'e not loving it but its still a profitable call.  The point of 3 betting is sometimes he folds (not a disaster) and when he calls you win more.

I would assume i have 40bb not 50 tbh.  A 1-2-4-8 game is effectively as big as a 5/10 game.  You can rarely go wrong getting 50BB in pre with Jacks in a cash game even v a tight player.  Do you think he ever shoves 77/88/99/22 here?  If hes a solid pro he'll be aware of the effective stack he's playing and that you might be attacking his open. 

Just because you think hes playing tight doesnt mean to say he thinks you think hes playing tight.  Maybe he opens AJ thinks your attacking the straddled pot and shoves?  I dunno theres just a lot of hands in my mind he could shove.  If hes in any way decent I dont buy it that hes only shoving QQ+ .  (other week i was playing full ring live got it in for 100bb from Big blind with AK v UTG (a renowned nit and tightest player at the table who wasnt tilting) Board runs out JJ447 and i win the pot - moral of the story players ranges are usually bigger than you give them credit for)

If he flats go broke on any flop with no overcards.  Be wary of Q's - are a slightly safer cards in my experience (i assume he shoves ak prob doesnt flat with kj or worse ks)
Given stack sizes you dont have to c bet that big on the flop maybe < 35% of the pot.  If villain flats 3 bet he prob has a strong holding so don't expect him to bluff you too often.

Jolly Good. This is more like what was going through my head.

I 3bet to 105. Villain flat called. I'd now narrow his range to QQ/JJ/TT/99 maybe? I think he'd also flat with KK and AA a decent amount too. Perhaps AQ? I think your paragraph about peoples ranges being larger than we give them credit for is really helpful Keith.

So pot is £223 We have £300 behind.

Flop  two spades Two Clubs

My thoughts here was that I had to bet call it off but not really loving it.

What about a T9x flop? Could we check/fold this?

Why would you c/f T9x ?

Id be betting £105 on that flop and jamming nearly every turn

cos then we literally don't beat anything and I can't ever expect to get called by worse.
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« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2011, 06:16:37 PM »

Default for me would be to 3 bet call.  Can flat if you like i guess but you should def not be 3 bet folding in this spot.  If he's tight and he jams your'e not loving it but its still a profitable call.  The point of 3 betting is sometimes he folds (not a disaster) and when he calls you win more.

I would assume i have 40bb not 50 tbh.  A 1-2-4-8 game is effectively as big as a 5/10 game.  You can rarely go wrong getting 50BB in pre with Jacks in a cash game even v a tight player.  Do you think he ever shoves 77/88/99/22 here?  If hes a solid pro he'll be aware of the effective stack he's playing and that you might be attacking his open. 

Just because you think hes playing tight doesnt mean to say he thinks you think hes playing tight.  Maybe he opens AJ thinks your attacking the straddled pot and shoves?  I dunno theres just a lot of hands in my mind he could shove.  If hes in any way decent I dont buy it that hes only shoving QQ+ .  (other week i was playing full ring live got it in for 100bb from Big blind with AK v UTG (a renowned nit and tightest player at the table who wasnt tilting) Board runs out JJ447 and i win the pot - moral of the story players ranges are usually bigger than you give them credit for)

If he flats go broke on any flop with no overcards.  Be wary of Q's - are a slightly safer cards in my experience (i assume he shoves ak prob doesnt flat with kj or worse ks)
Given stack sizes you dont have to c bet that big on the flop maybe < 35% of the pot.  If villain flats 3 bet he prob has a strong holding so don't expect him to bluff you too often.

Jolly Good. This is more like what was going through my head.

I 3bet to 105. Villain flat called. I'd now narrow his range to QQ/JJ/TT/99 maybe? I think he'd also flat with KK and AA a decent amount too. Perhaps AQ? I think your paragraph about peoples ranges being larger than we give them credit for is really helpful Keith.

So pot is £223 We have £300 behind.

Flop  two spades Two Clubs

My thoughts here was that I had to bet call it off but not really loving it.

What about a T9x flop? Could we check/fold this?

Why would you c/f T9x ?

Id be betting £105 on that flop and jamming nearly every turn

cos then we literally don't beat anything and I can't ever expect to get called by worse.

but you show so much profit in betting and once we've bet we're getting a sick price to call virtually regardless of his range
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« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2011, 06:18:28 PM »

Back to the hand.

I've just had a proper read of the range you've assigned villain and I might have to change my mind.

For some reason I thought you had him as tight. This range looks pretty wide to me and JJ smashes the shit out of it.

Def 3 bet and get it in is the correct line against this range.

Tbh though I can help but think that this game is still 1/2 and I don't want 200 bigs in with JJ.

I'd be looking at this in terms of my roll. If I'm rolled for 1/2 then I'm playing 1/2 so it's 200 bigs.

If I'm rolled for 5/10 and I'm one of the happy double straddlers then obviously I'm fist pumping JJ here with 50 bigs effective.

However if I'm rolled for 5/10 and double straddling a 1/2 game there is no way I'm sat with £400. I'd have minimum £1k with plenty to pull up which makes the whole hand play completely different.

In the £1/£2 at DTD the other day, we get the £128 straddle on by Vargas.

UTG (or as us cool kids now call it when leveling noobs, FTG: First to go) passes, as does button.

We are in the small blind having posted 100pence.

Effective stacks are roughly £700 with everyone except the £4 straddle whos playing £1k.

We have  and cover.

Are you putting in effectively 500BB's in this spot, or folding as its a £1/£2 game.
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« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2011, 06:29:19 PM »

lol exactly^
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