DISCUSSION: 99-QQ after 3b

[pleno1]

A spot I think that I may be over/under playing is when I have medium-large pairs and there has already been a 3bet before its reached me.

IMO whenever I flat here I almost always have 99-qq and if somebody flats me in this position/situation then I think I can play pretty much eprfectly against them and put them into ridic hard situations post flop. Obviously calling you have no initiative in the hand and in general its hard to play.

IMO if I cold 4b and they 5b jam over me I'm veryu rarely going to be good and 4b folding doesn't seem to good. But I don't think I'll ever get a really good sample size for metagame purposes to be able to 4b call it off with 99 profitably.

Folding seems weak against people with high 3b %.

So can some people just talk a little about how they play these hands from the blinds after a ep/mp open and a co/btn 3b?

Any other little things would be great too.

[cambridgealex]

Good topic, always struggle with this.

Although deeper I think you're range for cold calling 3bets can defo be wider if IP. Playing >200bbs, preferably >300, you can profitably peel perhaps all pairs even stronger suited connectors on the button, if the opener is vul to 4bet. This is definitely more profitable live (I assume your discussion relates to online?) where a) cold calling will encourage ppl to make bad peels behind you (for the value ldo) and b) people are way worse post / there are massive fish in the game sitting deep - the aim is trying to get in spots where you can win massive pots vs them.

Out of the blinds it's just a horrible spot because it's can't be profitable to set mine so like you said, your hand is really face up and make it easily for decent hand readers to own you post.

[George2Loose]

Don't we just muck 99 tt?

Great topic tho

[piestack]

dont you just raisecall if they're a loose 3bettor and fold if they're tight?

[muckthenuts]

dont you just raisecall if they're a loose 3bettor and fold if they're tight?

this. your actions are always player dependent.

In live £1-2 where most regs don't have a light 3bet range 99-JJ is a snap muck. QQ is closer.

[pleno1]

hand 1)

reg opens utg+1 w/120bbs

std reg 3b btn w/170bb

we in sb w/jj and 160bbs.. we....


Same situ but utg+1 is fish
Same situ but btn is ridic aggro
Same situ but btn is ridic nit
Same situ but we have 88
Same situ but we have kk
Same situ but btn is ridic nit and we have KK
Same situ but utg+1 is huge fish and we have KK

[JK]

1. Fold
2. 4 ball call
3. 4 ball call
4. Fold
5. Fold
6. Puke... 4b?
7. Flat (if he's gonna fold to the 4b we should prolly take a flop and let him lift off?)
8. Flat (to induce from fish? Though were prolly gonna be HU vs 3b'er if fish isn't spewy)


I'm prolly wrong on every account though, I'm tez

[cambridgealex]

hand 1)

reg opens utg+1 w/120bbs

std reg 3b btn w/170bb

we in sb w/jj and 160bbs.. we....


Same situ but utg+1 is fish
Same situ but btn is ridic aggro
Same situ but btn is ridic nit
Same situ but we have 88
Same situ but we have kk
Same situ but btn is ridic nit and we have KK
Same situ but utg+1 is huge fish and we have KK

Peel.

Regards,

Mitch

[WotRTheChances]

I assume this is full-ringness, not 6-max.

JJ: Fold
UTG+1 is fish: Call
BTN Aggro: 4-bet
BTN Nit: Fold
88: Fold
KK: 4-bet
BTN Nit w/KK: Call/4-bet, either is fine
UTG+1 huge fish w/KK: Call (unless they are stacking off v.light pre, then 4-bet).

[Solaris]

hand 1)

reg opens utg+1 w/120bbs

std reg 3b btn w/170bb

we in sb w/jj and 160bbs.. we....

The 3 bet size is important along with a million other things.

To use the range you posted initially I'd rather 4b/f 99-1010 in this spot than flat. I'm never flatting those 2 to a 3 bet. Might seem kinda weak, but it's hard to play or 10s profitably post-flop in 3 bet posts. JJ is much closer and I don't mind a flat or 4b with QQ.

When you say reg, do you mean a reg capable of 4 betting light? I only ask as I rarely see it live.

Same situ but utg+1 is fish - 4b/c too often he'll be isolating to not 4b. Am tempted to 4b/f to the fish, but that depends on his range etc.
Same situ but btn is ridic aggro - flat
Same situ but btn is ridic nit - fold
Same situ but we have 88 - fold
Same situ but we have kk - 4b
Same situ but btn is ridic nit and we have KK - 4b/c if he shows up with AA gg
Same situ but utg+1 is huge fish and we have KK - still 4b - don't way to go to the flop 3 way with kk oop

[Mitch]

hand 1)

reg opens utg+1 w/120bbs

std reg 3b btn w/170bb

we in sb w/jj and 160bbs.. we....


Same situ but utg+1 is fish
Same situ but btn is ridic aggro
Same situ but btn is ridic nit
Same situ but we have 88
Same situ but we have kk
Same situ but btn is ridic nit and we have KK
Same situ but utg+1 is huge fish and we have KK

Peel.

Regards,

Mitch

Dont fold dem purrrs in live games.

[SuuPRlim]

hand 1)

reg opens utg+1 w/120bbs

std reg 3b btn w/170bb

we in sb w/jj and 160bbs.. we....

Standard prolly to 4bet/call unless either player is very tight. Pretty sure if the first guy is opening a ton and the 3bettor is capable then you should be expecting folds a decent % of the time, running it through a FE calculator assuming they only get it in vs you with a ridic tight range AKo/AKs/JJ+ then the break even fold % of them both is 70%, and if you have any aggro dynamic with the 3bettor that might make him jam/5bet lighter then the play shows even more merit imo

Same situ but utg+1 is fish

big 4bet, snap either player off, reg should be trying to ISO the fish way way wider, if you have a tight rep or the 3bettor is kinda nitty in the big spots then maybe 4betting folding to him might be ftw but would need extremely specific reads/

Same situ but btn is ridic aggro

would maybe consider clicking it back snapping the btn jam and either calling or folding vs the initial raiser dependant on ur reads/history with him

Same situ but btn is ridic nit

fold prolly, itty regs are capable of 3betting spots like this wide and exploiting there image, but after a UTG open I think its nitty but just not too much of an error to let it go, JJ isnt exactly the same hand as 44 in this spot, but given how we are playing mainly for set value I just dont think we're deep enough to call when we're by no means gtd to make any money OOP vs too regs when we make a J.

Same situ but we have 88

prolly fold, although technically if we give there "GET IN range" the same as in the first example 88 plays pretyy similar to JJ in equity terms,so if they are only gettnig it in with such a tight range then we could still 4bet call if they are folding ~70%+ of the time, the reason why JJ is a much better hand than 88 here is because JJ's equity increases as his 5bet range widens and 88's doesnt.

Same situ but we have kk

4bet, call.

Same situ but btn is ridic nit and we have KK

4bet. you;re prolly more than capable in his eyes of being "light" here and he is prolly getting AKs/QQ in this is obv pretty unbalanced as you actually are gonna be bluffing here pretty infrequently lol

Same situ but utg+1 is huge fish and we have KK

4bet big, get him peeling, snap either off ofc

[paulhouk03]

do we really fold jj when there is a 3bet infront of us?


obv i am a tourny tard

[Solaris]

do we really fold jj when there is a 3bet infront of us?


obv i am a tourny tard

Most live pro's don't have a balanced 3 betting range so we can narrow their range fairly easily to 99+ AJs+ etc. As a result we're often behind their range with hands like or 10s when they've 3 bet and given we're OOP it's fairly standard to muck.

Many factors come into it tho, how deep we are, what they're like post-flop etc.

[dizeeG]

online its deff player dependent but most of the time in pos u can peel but oop u 4b with JJ+ imo but usually peel for a set mine with 99 / TT as lots of times ur ahed if theyre loose, and can avoid big pots if u miss completely.

totally player dependant imo with 99-QQ but with KK / AA it depends how u wanna play, straight to the point, or tricky / trappy. Stick it in with 4b if u wana show em wot u have, but tricky flat n c/raise flop or bet out with draw heavy 1 ?