Things that piss you off!

[mulhuzz]

You say that people are sick of immigration.

I say that in general people aren't well enough informed about immigration to form a view that isn't shouted at them by the nearest anti-politician. Only 30% of people voted in these elections. You can't say 'everyone has had enough' but you can definitely expect that a large amount of UKIP votes came from disenchantment with the big three because I refuse to believe that given other reasonable choices any one of sound mind would vote for an openly racist agenda.

You can't be a political party if you only have a policy on immigration and nothing else.

If anyone voted Farrage and his ilk because they think they are a better choice to lead than the current crop of non-entities then I'll understand, although I disagree. If anyone voted them because they think they are the best choice in total (that you won't find a better choice) then that is just miseducation and stupidity of the highest order.

[Woodsey]

You say that people are sick of immigration.

I say that in general people aren't well enough informed about immigration to form a view that isn't shouted at them by the nearest anti-politician. Only 30% of people voted in these elections. You can't say 'everyone has had enough' but you can definitely expect that a large amount of UKIP votes came from disenchantment with the big three because I refuse to believe that given other reasonable choices any one of sound mind would vote for an openly racist agenda.

You can't be a political party if you only have a policy on immigration and nothing else.

If anyone voted Farrage and his ilk because they think they are a better choice to lead than the current crop of non-entities then I'll understand, although I disagree. If anyone voted them because they think they are the best choice in total (that you won't find a better choice) then that is just miseducation and stupidity of the highest order.

Like I said I don't expect UKIP to get voted for in such big numbers at the general election, but whoever takes their lead on immigration (and someone will, probably the tories) will get a lot of their votes.

You are not in a position to say if people are informed or not on immigration, they are probably as well informed as you or me, there is no reason why they shouldn't be. Also for the the umpteeth time stop using the race card, its perfectly possible to want tighter immigration without being racist, people always try to stifle the debate by throwing that grenade in and it simply isn't fair, calling someone racist isn't something to be done lightly.

[nirvana]

I agree with you that it's very hard to get the balance of debate right and I don't think it is automatically racist to want tighter immigration controls.

Having said that, I've never come across a rationale argument that demonstrates unequivocally that the country has too many immigrants now or is about to have. And so I always do end up concluding that it is fundamentally a racist perspective - innocently or otherwise

[teamonkey]

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to be able to speak English to a usable degree?

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to bring useful skills into it?

Is it racist to expect the people who want to love in this country to have put money into the pot BEFORE they start taking it out?

A very simplistic way of looking at things i know, but i also know it's the sort of thing that is going through peoples heads and potentially why many have voted UKIP.

[rfgqqabc]

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to be able to speak English to a usable degree?
It's close. I live in a country where I don't speak the native toungue and probably won't learn much at all. I'm not proud of this but I wouldn't be doing the same in Spain perhaps but it is close to the line/racist imo. I would never look down upon someone who doesn't speak English in Hungary but others might. I don't think the majority of people expect an expat to learn the language, which might be a difference too.

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to bring useful skills into it?
Not racist, but we should also help others. We have plenty of Brits who aren't doing anything useful.

Is it racist to expect the people who want to love in this country to have put money into the pot BEFORE they start taking it out?
Pot is a very broad term and overall this is a simplistic way of looking at it. In a small number of cases, the NHS spend fortunes on new born babies which could also be seen as not justified or w/e if you follow this train of thought just a little bit further.
A very simplistic way of looking at things i know, but i also know it's the sort of thing that is going through peoples heads and potentially why many have voted UKIP.

Having extremely narrow minded, simplistic reasoning for wanting something so dependent on so many factors is just a mistake in my opinion.

[mulhuzz]

What's this 'pot' you're talking about Teamonkey?

Let me explain - via the medium of poetry - just how economics works:



NB: not actually me.

[Jon MW]

To put it another way - the success UKIP has had shows that immigration is a concern for a lot of people.

It might not be a rational concern but the general approach of dismissing it all as racist and basically ignoring it, probably, isn't the best approach.

Then again neither is pandering to it.

A mixture of addressing any actual holes in the system (or being seen to), and some gentle re-education might be a bit better - but it's not exactly an easy problem to solve when the whole of Europe has shifted to the Right.

[Woodsey]

Some interesting words in the last few posts like narrow minded, simplistic and re-educating. How about the possibiltiy that people who like the idea of tighter immigration are no different than any of you, and have thought about it all and heard all the arguments and have simply formed a different view?

[mulhuzz]

Whole of Europe hasn't shifted right. Greece (who have more reason than most to be anti EU now) have shifted about as far left as possible.

@woodsey: fine to have debate about Europe. Fine to have debate about immigration. Fine to debate the extent to which London is a sink for rUK. Not fine to debate all of that using basically racist platform. Not fine to straight up lie and deceive, as UKIP demonstrably do, to create politics of fear.

Also, maybe you are well informed about all these issues. That makes you one from lots. Education about the issue is important if people are to be trusted enough to decide IN/OUT on EU. Reading the Sun or the Daily Mail, or the Express, or whatever doesn't make people educated on the issue. Now that's not their fault either like, the News should be able to deliver key facts.

[teamonkey]

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to be able to speak English to a usable degree?
It's close. I live in a country where I don't speak the native toungue and probably won't learn much at all. I'm not proud of this but I wouldn't be doing the same in Spain perhaps but it is close to the line/racist imo. I would never look down upon someone who doesn't speak English in Hungary but others might. I don't think the majority of people expect an expat to learn the language, which might be a difference too.

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to bring useful skills into it?
Not racist, but we should also help others. We have plenty of Brits who aren't doing anything useful.

Is it racist to expect the people who want to love in this country to have put money into the pot BEFORE they start taking it out?
Pot is a very broad term and overall this is a simplistic way of looking at it. In a small number of cases, the NHS spend fortunes on new born babies which could also be seen as not justified or w/e if you follow this train of thought just a little bit further.
A very simplistic way of looking at things i know, but i also know it's the sort of thing that is going through peoples heads and potentially why many have voted UKIP.

Having extremely narrow minded, simplistic reasoning for wanting something so dependent on so many factors is just a mistake in my opinion.

I have to agree with you, it IS a mistake, but, unless you are a politician, or privy to a great deal of information that your everyday Joe doesnt have at his/her fingertips, then those three things are pretty much all you see/hear/know.

Then when the same persons read/hear about UKIP tightening immigration, regardless of any other policies, they will go and tick that UKIP box.

I didnt vote UKIP, i certainly dont have any answers.

I'm the youngest of 3 brothers, the middle brother is disabled, has muscular dystrophy, and he needs financial, physical and medical help, and i dont begrudge him, or someone like him, any of the money that my taxes go towards

The eldest brother, well, he is a lazy waste of space, has lived on the state almost his entire life, but recently, his council house got new double glazing, a new kitchen, bathroom suite and tiling, and a new gas fire(which he complained about as they were a day late fitting it). He believes that we should all get paid roughtly the same, regardless of what job we do, or what skills we have, or how much work we have put into our education/employability. And i'd rather suplement the 18 year old from Poland, who works 7 days a week in all weather conditions, in a hand car wash, probably getting paid less than minimum wage (but not on paper), than him, or people like him.

If i did vote for UKIP, like someone else has said, it wouldnt be a vote for them to get into power, it'd be more a vote of no confidence in the other big 3

PS, i'm not a racist

[Longines]

Politics threads.

[Cf]

It pisses me off when people de-rail the things that piss you off thread.

[sonour]

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to be able to speak English to a usable degree?

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to bring useful skills into it?

Is it racist to expect the people who want to love in this country to have put money into the pot BEFORE they start taking it out?

A very simplistic way of looking at things i know, but i also know it's the sort of thing that is going through peoples heads and potentially why many have voted UKIP.

Very well said

[nirvana]

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to be able to speak English to a usable degree?

Is it racist to expect the people who want to live in this country to bring useful skills into it?

Is it racist to expect the people who want to love in this country to have put money into the pot BEFORE they start taking it out?

A very simplistic way of looking at things i know, but i also know it's the sort of thing that is going through peoples heads and potentially why many have voted UKIP.

Very well said

Irony ?

[Woodsey]

Whole of Europe hasn't shifted right. Greece (who have more reason than most to be anti EU now) have shifted about as far left as possible.

@woodsey: fine to have debate about Europe. Fine to have debate about immigration. Fine to debate the extent to which London is a sink for rUK. Not fine to debate all of that using basically racist platform. Not fine to straight up lie and deceive, as UKIP demonstrably do, to create politics of fear.

Also, maybe you are well informed about all these issues. That makes you one from lots. Education about the issue is important if people are to be trusted enough to decide IN/OUT on EU. Reading the Sun or the Daily Mail, or the Express, or whatever doesn't make people educated on the issue. Now that's not their fault either like, the News should be able to deliver key facts.

So we've gone from narrow minded, simplistic and people that need re-educating, to people that read the Sun, Mail or Express supporting tighter immigration.

So once again I ask the question, maybe people supporting tighter immigration are no different than those with the opposite viewpoint, maybe they have thought about it all and heard all the arguments and have simply formed a different view? Is that such a stretch of the imagination?

These comments crop up a lot from those with the opposing viewpoint, maybe they are coming from those who are being narrow minded and simplistic towards those that support tighter immigration laws and can't accept they have formed a different opinion even though they are as well informed.