Online poker in the UK to face reform

[AlunB]

And obviously you could give punters the option of paying a 'tax' on deposits or withdrawls in the same way as the old betting tax used to work.

[DungBeetle]

but then you are taxing everybody.  So the net effect is losses, not taxable gains.

I don't think someone who works and gets taxed at 50% should then be taxed again if he goes to the casino/racecourse and has a good night.  You'll kill the industry.

However, if someone earns their living by scalping betfair markets or playing online poker full time,  then they should be taxed imo.

Problem is - how do you tell?

[DungBeetle]

In fact why are we even lobbying for more tax.  It just gets p*ssed up the walls by politicians on vanity projects and the usual imbeciles that inhabit the local councils.

[doubleup]

I have never really understood why professional gamblers think they should be exempt from contributing to society by paying taxes anyway. 

Very much this.

Dont think you guys are getting the point - the courts have decided that gambling winnings do not fall into the defined categories of taxable income.  So saying that you can't understand is (admittedly exaggeration) like asking why murder is a crime. 

If the govt wished to individually tax winning gamblers, they would have to create an entirely new form of tax.  So this would mean drafting legislation, getting parliamentary time, setting up admin systems and ongoing admin.  All for an unreliable and unquantifiable income stream.

[AlunB]

At the risk of getting dragged into a discussion I've had far too many times....

As I said you could, reasonably easily, reintroduce the betting tax that existed in the UK for many years. Remember paying tax on either your initial bet or your winnings? I do and I'm not even that old.

It's NOT the same as making gamblers pay income tax, but it is a way of making them contribute in some way.

It was abolished because the goverment didn't want everyone moving offshore and losing jobs and revenue that way. Ironically some of the firms that wanted it replaced are now moving offshore anyway.

[AlunB]

I have never really understood why professional gamblers think they should be exempt from contributing to society by paying taxes anyway. 

Very much this.

Dont think you guys are getting the point - the courts have decided that gambling winnings do not fall into the defined categories of taxable income.  So saying that you can't understand is (admittedly exaggeration) like asking why murder is a crime. 

If the govt wished to individually tax winning gamblers, they would have to create an entirely new form of tax.  So this would mean drafting legislation, getting parliamentary time, setting up admin systems and ongoing admin.  All for an unreliable and unquantifiable income stream.

Aren't you talking at crossed purposes here?

[DungBeetle]

But why do you want to tax the casual punter?  Don't we think there enough tax out there?  Income tax, CGT, Corporation Tax, VAT, cigarette/alcohol levies, council tax etc etc etc etc

[redarmi]

It is a myth that punters aren't taxed anyway.  They simply changed the burden of the taxation for bookmakers from it being a tax on turnover to being one on gross profits which was what the firms wanted.  In terms of actual revenue it is pretty much the same but allows the firms to compete internationally (although there is very much a move towards firms basing more and more overseas).  Pretty much the only reason that oevrrounds haven't increased substantially is that bookmakers/gaming firms have seen the breadth of their business increase and move away from the traditional racing, football etc to fixed odds betting terminals, poker, online casinos etc etc

[strak33]

I have never really understood why professional gamblers think they should be exempt from contributing to society by paying taxes anyway. 

Very much this.

Very much not this. Struggle to beat the rake.

[doubleup]

I have never really understood why professional gamblers think they should be exempt from contributing to society by paying taxes anyway. 

Very much this.

Dont think you guys are getting the point - the courts have decided that gambling winnings do not fall into the defined categories of taxable income.  So saying that you can't understand is (admittedly exaggeration) like asking why murder is a crime. 

If the govt wished to individually tax winning gamblers, they would have to create an entirely new form of tax.  So this would mean drafting legislation, getting parliamentary time, setting up admin systems and ongoing admin.  All for an unreliable and unquantifiable income stream.

Aren't you talking at crossed purposes here?

Slightly, but my point is that there is no such thing a professional gambler where uk law is concerned so the question of whether they should contribute to society is irrelevant.

[vegaslover]

I don't think the Govt will ever tax poker winnings, or indeed any other form of gambling, at least not from the punters.
When the betting tax was abolished the betting firms turnover increased threefold, almost overnight. The Govt were making far more in tax on the profits than they ever were before.
Abolishing the duty made it far easier for casual punters to have a bet. It also opened up the 'odds on' markets. With the duty it was always a losing bet, even if you won. Now people can make a profit from odds on betting. These of course are bookies cash cows as the don't lose much when they come in and we all know how mug punters chase favs blind.
However, the online markets have changed a lot of this. In the current climate i can see the Govt saying to these companies you can only operate in our shores if you pay as a bigger % of your profits. This will be passed on to players via higher rake.

There are far too many losers for the Govt to tax gamblers as a whole

[boldie]

I have never really understood why professional gamblers think they should be exempt from contributing to society by paying taxes anyway. 

Very much this.

Very much not this. Struggle to beat the rake.

that's OK, we were talking about winning players. If you're struggling to beat the rake you're not a winning player (unless rakeback means you are profitable, in which case you should pay tax..assuming you make more than your tax-free allowance)

[Solaris]

If the Government tried to tax individual punters for online poker winnings, would it have to be recognised as a skill game for that to happen? Surely you can't tax people on a game of chance?

Do agree with a lot of posts in here, particularly from the likes of vegaslover.

[Somerled]

There have been no Cabinet level discussions regarding taxing poker winnings since the new Govt came into operation. This from, ahem, a senior govt source about a month ago.

[redarmi]

If the Government tried to tax individual punters for online poker winnings, would it have to be recognised as a skill game for that to happen? Surely you can't tax people on a game of chance?

Do agree with a lot of posts in here, particularly from the likes of vegaslover.

Don't really understand your logic here.  Most countries tax lottery winners for example.