KK in live £1/2 3bet 3way pot, how's my line/wwyd?

[Pinchop73]

Played this hand recently on a £1/2 table.

My image: I've been pretty aggressive pre flop and have a nice LAG image built up at the table. I also have many hours experience playing both villains in this hand.

Villain 1 in the hand is an old agro donk. Have played with him at another venue months ago, he was drunk then and making x50 raises pre etc. But, he defo isn't drunk right now. Raises pre with atc, calls 3bets with the same. But, post flop, is normally very passive. Slow plays a lot, a serial flop floater, and is pretty stationy with draws. Once numbers get decent he's very shy to bet unless he hits hard.

Villain 2 is an old supernit. Has never raise pre with anything less than top 4%. Folds to 3bet% very high for this guy. Does flat raises pre flop pretty wide, but he only flats 3bets with very strong holdings. Never seen him 3/4bet EVER, seen him flat AA/KK many times. The main thing with this guy is that he is the epitome of passive post flop. Normally check/calls all the way to showdown, he's much happier when someone else decides the bet size. When he does bet (ie when he's huuuuge) his bet sizing is always lol bad, I mean LOL! Very rarely plays more than 1 hand per hour etc.

The hand...

Villain 1 opens to £7 from the mp2. (playing £350ish)

Villain 2 calls. (bout £430)

Hero wakes up with on the button. 3bets to £29. (playing £230)

Folds to Villain 1 calls, villain 2 calls.

Flop (pot £90)  

Villain 1 checks.

Villain 2 bets one £25 chip.

Hero calls. Villain 1 calls.

Turn (pot £165)  

Villain 1 checks.

Villain 2 bets £30.

Hero calls. Villain 1 calls.

River (pot £255)  

Villain 1 checks, villain 2 checks.

Hero

[Bully87]

Superwet board on the river, everything got there draw wise.
Raise flop IMO

[muckthenuts]

Raise flop IMO

This.

Betting like £50 the way the hand has played out. Lots of hands that call flop will have 2pr by the river and £1/2 players can't fold these. They'll show up with QJ/TJ hands that were scared of the hearts too, but i think you can still bet your hand for value and expect to get called by worse a lot of the time considering the price and the standard of player.

[Patonius2000]

Given the description of villain 2, I play it same and check back the river.

[Bully87]

Raise flop IMO

This.

Betting like £50 the way the hand has played out. Lots of hands that call flop will have 2pr by the river and £1/2 players can't fold these. They'll show up with QJ/TJ hands that were scared of the hearts too, but i think you can still bet your hand for value and expect to get called by worse a lot of the time considering the price and the standard of player.

I dont think we're ever getting called by worse than a straight in this spot. Would rather save 50 quid than be check called by a the combos you mentioned who are scared of hearts. 50 into 255 would be a pretty risky and pointless bet on this wet board. But then again I might well be a nit.

[mondatoo]

Why would we raise the flop vs described villain, it achieves nothing ?

[Bully87]

Why would we raise the flop vs described villain, it achieves nothing ?

For value?

Villain 1 - Once numbers get decent he's very shy to bet unless he hits hard.
Villain 2 - Only flats 3bets with v.strong holdings.

So we've 3bet pre, Villain 1 does as expected on flop, Villain 2 who only plays 4% of hands donks into Hero and we have the 2nd best hand in Poker in position, I'd raise the flop on that information.

What would you do Monda?

[mondatoo]

Why would we raise the flop vs described villain, it achieves nothing ?

For value?

Villain 1 - Once numbers get decent he's very shy to bet unless he hits hard.
Villain 2 - Only flats 3bets with v.strong holdings.

So we've 3bet pre, Villain 1 does as expected on flop, Villain 2 who only plays 4% of hands donks into Hero and we have the 2nd best hand in Poker in position, I'd raise the flop on that information.

What would you do Monda?

Well we don't have the 2nd nuts.

I agree with Patonius, based on the description of Villain 2, we know he's super passive post flop so what do you think his donking range is here, what are you expecting to get value from, I can't see any of his donking range that we could look to get value from ? I'm not even sure what he could have that we are ahead of but never folding, he doesn't have JJ here, or AQ by the sounds of it. I debated whether we could get some thin value on the river from Villain 2 if he had a set depending on villain 1's tendancies to donk rivers when he binks as I don't think villain 2 ever has a straight or flush but think it would be too thin.

[DMorgan]

Given the description of villain 2, I play it same and check back the river.

[SuuPRlim]

Given the description of villain 2, I play it same and check back the river.

would agree with this 100% however the only thing that makes me wanna raise at some point is the bet sizing, not sure if this is true of this guy but my experience of this type of player is that bet size is directly correlated to hand stregnth and as tight as they play on the rare occasions they get into a pot betting or calling they tend to cling on pretty hard. I'd just be so sure he had AQs because id feel he would c/r or bet more OTT with QQ

[Pinchop73]

Great guys, cheers for the analysis.

I obv went over this hand myself afterwards but really wanted some other opinions so thanks.

I did indeed decide to check behind, the board is just way to wet for me to think I'm ahead.

Villain 1 showed down  .
Villain 2 showed  .

On it again Dave.

I obviously wish I had raised the flop now, but the only time I'd ever seen him lead out weak previously was when he'd gone to showdown with the goods, so decided against it. Another bit of experience.

The thing I took the most out of this hand was the need to adjust correctly. As I said villain 2 only ever opens/raises with top holdings like JJ+, but he does coldcall raises much wider, yet his 3bet calling range is normally pretty tight.

But with my image, I guess he widens his 3calling range, so I need to adjust accordingly.

Many thanks all