Button Shove 2

[WPIL]

Luton
Live
£40 FO
1 off Final Table and Monies
Q 10 off
Small Blind - Calling a lot and folding - weak
Big Blind - Gary Wilson - Made 1 move earlier on table with rubbish but otherwise playing snug
Blinds 3k, 6k plus antes
I have  around 75k
Small Blind 60k
Big Blind under 50k
Shove 100% of time with these players?

[MC]

You can shove super-wide but I wouldn't shove ATC.

Jam 94s but ditch Q2, jam 68os but ditch 83, that kind of thing.

[WPIL]

Merits of playing it another way - Calling and then C Betting All flops after the inevitable check , check unless they hit?

[cambridgealex]

Really 94ss>Q2?

Merits of playing it another way - Calling and then C Betting All flops after the inevitable check , check unless they hit?

[ ] merits

[pleno1]

Really 94ss>Q2?

Merits of playing it another way - Calling and then C Betting All flops after the inevitable check , check unless they hit?

[ ] merits

Its similar to your HU strategy against Perrins right?

[MC]

Really 94ss>Q2?

I guess it's kinda marginal.

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    71.142%     70.72%    00.42%        2630302332     15549492.00   { 33+, A7s+, KJs+, A8o+, KQo }
Hand 1:    28.858%     28.44%    00.42%        1057722972     15549492.00   { Q2o }

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    68.097%     67.68%    00.42%         843613168      5254328.00   { 33+, A7s+, KJs+, A8o+, KQo }
Hand 1:    31.903%     31.48%    00.42%         392435488      5254328.00   { 94s }


Still had more equity vs a tighter range as well...

[pleno1]

we think they are calling this wide in a live "grosvenor" comp?

[MC]

we think they are calling this wide in a live "grosvenor" comp?

Not necessarily, was just trying to get as many undercards to the 9 and the 4 in as I possibly could

[the rage]

As i understand it, shoving with QT is probably the 'correct' option. I also understand that raise folding from a 12.5bb stack is supposed to be a big no-no. Having said that, from my limited experience in these scenarios, i'm going to go for the option of making a raise to 15k, with the intention of folding to the shove.
 It's very much player dependent, but, in the scenario described, i dont think that we are going to get shoved on too frequently with anything less than a premium hand and i honestly dont think that we need to risk most of our stack to find out if either of our opponents have one.
 Anyone agree?

[SuuPRlim]

As i understand it, shoving with QT is probably the 'correct' option. I also understand that raise folding from a 12.5bb stack is supposed to be a big no-no. Having said that, from my limited experience in these scenarios, i'm going to go for the option of making a raise to 15k, with the intention of folding to the shove.
 It's very much player dependent, but, in the scenario described, i dont think that we are going to get shoved on too frequently with anything less than a premium hand and i honestly dont think that we need to risk most of our stack to find out if either of our opponents have one.
 Anyone agree?

no need to make it 15k, 12k is the same imo. Well actually yh I can see some merit here in the min/fold because it's sucess rate is likely to be very high and it doesn't even need to be, and then next hand we have 63k instead of 75k and live that still gives us plenty of FE - the main problem with this strategy from a theory perspective is that when we jam 94s and get called by AT we have 35% equity still, but if we min/fold we never realize that equity. also in a live game you could potentially get peeled which would be fucking horrible. I actually quite like it though, min/fold.

[the rage]

Thanks for that informative reply Dave. I was half expecting my raise /fold suggestion to get ridiculed. In my world of low stakes tournament poker i frequently find myself making, what i believe to be, theoretically correct shoves, only to get knocked out when the big blind or whoever wakes up with a premium hand.
 I understand your point about giving up the showdown equity of our hand. I also see that it could be difficult if one of the blinds peels.
 I just thought that, in this particular scenario, on the bubble, the weak small blind would probably not want to get involved without a monster, and the big blind may well view our raise as a strong hand raising to induce a shove and, due to his stack size he should never be peeling.
 Also, should the bubble factor be another reason for not, effectively, risking our tournament here.
 ps-I think that shoving with 94 suited would be a -ve move in this spot.

[WPIL]

In the end I played this hand badly (IMO) probably the worst of my 4 options (Calling) - the plan in my head against these 2 players was to get to the flop cheaply and CBet in position as pretty much most of the time they would have been happy to complete/not raise from the big blind - however I got shoved on by the big blind and decided to fold as I now had to consider what the small blind would do (look how much is in the pot now I have to call)
Big Blinds Q 9 got there on the QQx,10,x board
Also it was the last hand before a break and have found in a lot of live tournaments in the buy in range I play in that people switch off at this stage wanting (Drink Smoke, Piss etc) so the min raise would have been more likely to get through?

[muckthenuts]

This is a definite shove pre.

[Solaris]

I don't hate raise/folding pre but I'm shoving pretty much 100% of the time. r/f depends on your image to some extent. If you're seen as tight then it's fine, anything else and you have to shove pre to avoid being shoved on.

Calling is obviously the worst option. I'd be shoving pretty much ATC from the BB in that spot so long as the BTN wasn't a stubborn donkey who'll limp/call super wide.