Big stack v Big Stack - less aggression?

[jjandellis]

$5k Gtd on Stars, 1402 runner with about 70 left. Sitting 3rd in chips. The villain is about third in chips and I think the average stack is about 50k. This hand occurs:

PokerStars Game #66167914863: Tournament #426844131, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (1000/2000) - 2011/08/17 21:28:31 ET
Table '426844131 91' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: jjandellis (165018 in chips)
Seat 2: Big_Al3106 (77748 in chips)
Seat 3: hippyneil (17543 in chips)
Seat 4: D3333P (16058 in chips)
Seat 5: tem@161 (142477 in chips)
Seat 6: drune tereur (37596 in chips)
Seat 7: IRailYou (45837 in chips)
Seat 8: Sir AndrosMM (47606 in chips)
Seat 9: yoz2k11 (72035 in chips)
jjandellis: posts the ante 250
Big_Al3106: posts the ante 250
hippyneil: posts the ante 250
D3333P: posts the ante 250
tem@161: posts the ante 250
drune tereur: posts the ante 250
IRailYou: posts the ante 250
Sir AndrosMM: posts the ante 250
yoz2k11: posts the ante 250
D3333P: posts small blind 1000
tem@161: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jjandellis [ ]
drune tereur: folds
IRailYou: folds
Sir AndrosMM: folds
yoz2k11: folds
jjandellis: raises 3000 to 5000
Big_Al3106: folds
hippyneil: folds
D3333P: folds
tem@161: raises 7000 to 12000
jjandellis: calls 7000
*** FLOP *** [ ]
Big_Al3106 said, "82% odds of getting killed and he jumps"
tem@161: bets 16000
jjandellis: raises 16000 to 32000
tem@161: raises 16000 to 48000
Big_Al3106 said, "he should find a bridge"
jjandellis: raises 104768 to 152768 and is all-in
tem@161: calls 82227 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (22541) returned to jjandellis
*** TURN *** [ ] []
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tem@161: shows [ As] (a flush, Ace high)
jjandellis: shows [ ] (three of a kind, Fours)
tem@161 collected 287704 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 287704 | Rake 0
Board [ ]
Seat 1: jjandellis showed [ ] and lost with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 2: Big_Al3106 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: hippyneil (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: D3333P (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: tem@161 (big blind) showed [ As] and won (287704) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: drune tereur folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: IRailYou folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Sir AndrosMM folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: yoz2k11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Having shared the table with him for a while, I figure the very best he's on is AK or KQ, so I'm happy that I get in well ahead. I know I'm v unlucky to lose it. That's not why I posted this.

My concern is that I keep getting myself into similar positions - and blowing up like this. The prospect of getting a super huge stack seems to get the better of me...

In a pre-flop situation like this, do you play it so aggressively against another big stack when you are both so deep? Or do you try and control the pot a little more? Do you play these spots differently against the big stacks compared to when played against small/medium stacks?

[redarmi]

I think you played it fine.  Not sure why you think the best he has is AK/KQ here....don't AA and KK make up a fair bit ofhis range too?  prob more so the former which obv makes no real diff.

In general it depends on exactly what the payjumps are and when and also whether I am calling it off or the aggressor.  I am very conservative when it comes to calling it off with marginal holdings against another big stack and probably exercise a fair bit of pot control when I am the bettor/aggressor.  For example if the villain was the one doing the betting here and we had got to the river i would almost certainly be folding any significant sized bet.  At this kind of point in a tourney you are getting handed chips so often by shortstacks there is no real need to take on marginal spots versus the big stacks so i try and avoid them.

[cambridgealex]

raise smaller pre. 4000-4300 ish is enough. Then you can really setmine!

Everything is standard from then on. Deep enough to setmine IP. Get it in when you can. If he wants to get it in on the flop then oblige him gladly.

This is not a blow up!

[redarmi]

I probably wouldn't have folded to the 3bet but you aren't really getting that great odds to setmine here especially if you think he is doing this with hands he can get away from a lot like AK/KQ so you would have to have the ability to get something out of the hand other than just if you hit your hand to make the call profitable.  Whether you call here pre depends on how comfortable you are playing with him postflop if you don't hit.  Obv when you hit it pretty much plays itself but I wouldn't beat yourself up about blowing up......it is hard when you reach the latter stages of comps like this (and I've play a lot of them recently) because you are getting so close but even when you reach the final 50 you are going to go home with relatively little most of the time.

[Pinchop73]

This is not a blow up!

^this^

I too play ssmtt mainly on pstars, I've had shit like this happen for 150 odd games now, the odd exception, but it happens. Even with a decent skill edge, this is why you need a 300buyin bankroll in these tournies, the fields are huge. Defo keep at it tho as the value in coming top three is immense.

For sure look to get tangled up with another big stack with set opportunities imo. With a little more luck you'd be sitting on a 160bb stack which gives you a fantastic opportunity to keep pressure applied all the way to the FT where the real money is at.

[action man]

get your ten bob in the tin mate

[AlexMartin]

$5k Gtd on Stars, 1402 runner with about 70 left. Sitting 3rd in chips. The villain is about third in chips and I think the average stack is about 50k. This hand occurs:

PokerStars Game #66167914863: Tournament #426844131, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (1000/2000) - 2011/08/17 21:28:31 ET
Table '426844131 91' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: jjandellis (165018 in chips)
Seat 2: Big_Al3106 (77748 in chips)
Seat 3: hippyneil (17543 in chips)
Seat 4: D3333P (16058 in chips)
Seat 5: tem@161 (142477 in chips)
Seat 6: drune tereur (37596 in chips)
Seat 7: IRailYou (45837 in chips)
Seat 8: Sir AndrosMM (47606 in chips)
Seat 9: yoz2k11 (72035 in chips)
jjandellis: posts the ante 250
Big_Al3106: posts the ante 250
hippyneil: posts the ante 250
D3333P: posts the ante 250
tem@161: posts the ante 250
drune tereur: posts the ante 250
IRailYou: posts the ante 250
Sir AndrosMM: posts the ante 250
yoz2k11: posts the ante 250
D3333P: posts small blind 1000
tem@161: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jjandellis [ ]
drune tereur: folds
IRailYou: folds
Sir AndrosMM: folds
yoz2k11: folds
jjandellis: raises 3000 to 5000
Big_Al3106: folds
hippyneil: folds
D3333P: folds
tem@161: raises 7000 to 12000
jjandellis: calls 7000
*** FLOP *** [ ]
Big_Al3106 said, "82% odds of getting killed and he jumps"
tem@161: bets 16000
jjandellis: raises 16000 to 32000
tem@161: raises 16000 to 48000
Big_Al3106 said, "he should find a bridge"
jjandellis: raises 104768 to 152768 and is all-in
tem@161: calls 82227 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (22541) returned to jjandellis
*** TURN *** [ ] []
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tem@161: shows [ As] (a flush, Ace high)
jjandellis: shows [ ] (three of a kind, Fours)
tem@161 collected 287704 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 287704 | Rake 0
Board [ ]
Seat 1: jjandellis showed [ ] and lost with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 2: Big_Al3106 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: hippyneil (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: D3333P (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: tem@161 (big blind) showed [ As] and won (287704) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: drune tereur folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: IRailYou folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Sir AndrosMM folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: yoz2k11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Having shared the table with him for a while, I figure the very best he's on is AK or KQ, so I'm happy that I get in well ahead. I know I'm v unlucky to lose it. That's not why I posted this.

My concern is that I keep getting myself into similar positions - and blowing up like this. The prospect of getting a super huge stack seems to get the better of me...

In a pre-flop situation like this, do you play it so aggressively against another big stack when you are both so deep? Or do you try and control the pot a little more? Do you play these spots differently against the big stacks compared to when played against small/medium stacks?

you played it passively/standardly/well. You hardly played it so aggressively against a big stack (you have a set in a 3bet pot......).  Probably open tiny bit smaller off that stack size as you should be opening a tonne (which you probably should be).

you cant really control the pot when he 3bets pre and you have reasonable implied odds given his sizing and the fact hes bad. Then you flop a set on a dry board and he goes crazy. Minraising the flop in a 3b pot on the flop pretty much puts your hand faceup as AA/set. When we get all the chips in hes virtually dead.

sorry i cant help but think this is a long, drawn out 50p job.

[AlexMartin]

fk i got levelled didnt i.

[SuuPRlim]

he should defo be showing some restraint vs you here lol

[Skippy]

fk i got levelled didnt i.

Truely no. I really appreciate the input from the posters. Lik I said in the OP, I'm concerned that I keep getting a big stack and blowing by running into other big stacks. I'm happy enough with how to navigate to FT's on smaller fields (180 - 360)...but with the much bigger fields I just seem to implode at a certain point where the cash gained is ridic small compared to the hours put into getting there. I'm just not getting to where the big pay jumps are. I'm trying to ID where I'm going wrong!!!

As I say, I now this was a beat. Not to fussed about that. My concern is purely whether or not I should be exercising more restraint against other big stacks...

Well, you've not done anything wrong here, really. Bigger tournaments just have bigger variance- that's why the 180s and 90s are so attractive. More players mean a tournament goes on longer, which means a bigger chance of something horrible happening. It's obviously easier to FT a tourney with 180 people than it is with 1400.

As for exercising restraint against other big stacks- all the money in tournaments are in winning them. You're stack isn't that big in the context of the tournament- it's only going to get you a top 20 finish. If you don't take on these situations, you are going to greatly increase your chance of finishing 30th, but greatly decreasing your chance of winning. You're right- on a final table where the pay jumps are significant, you might want to avoid clashing with another big stack if there are loads of shorties about, but at this stage, you almost need to ignore the hanging-on-to-get-more-money, and just try to get every chip.

The luck involved in tournaments is pretty huge. A good player can expect to get a 100% ROI in these tournaments. Someone like Shaun Deeb gets around 300-400% and everyone is like "OMG you are so f'n amazing". I'm guessing first prize for this thing is something like $1400. Your ideal tourney player's results look like 1 1st and 170 miss the moneys.

The only person who disagrees with this advice is Jason Herbert, and we banned him.

[cambridgealex]

Your ideal tourney player's results look like 1 1st and 170 miss the moneys.

Agreed