Should we raise here?

[zerofive]

Probably a pretty simple one, but I've been getting into these spots a lot recently and value towning myself a bunch. Just wanted the opinion of some sickos. Here's one that happened last night:

Soft, limpy 50p/£1 table at Alea. Villain and I are playing £250 effective. Villain is reasonably standard £1/2 reg, not great but doesn't seem too terrible, has won a lot without showdown this evening. Recently folded JJ to me on A 2 T 2, "because of the second deuce not the ace," so we know what he thinks about us.

Spewy loose aggressive passive player opens to £6 to the surprise of nobody. Three callers to our button, we call with . Blinds fold.

Flop (£31.50)

All check, we check.

Turn (£31.50)

Checked to villain on my immediate right, who bets £4.50. We raise to £22 pretty quickly. Folded round to villain who thinks for 20 seconds or so and calls.

River (£75.50)

Villain thinks about betting, then about checking, then arrives at £33. Is this just a call, or is this a definite raise?

[cambridgealex]

Definitely not raising, thinking about folding, villain dependent. Mostly I'm just calling here.

[pleno1]

raise to 80 and fold shove.

[zerofive]

raise to 80 and fold shove.

I liked this idea for a while, but decided there are not many raise sizes that don't set up a good shove spot for villain. Raise-folding is just inviting him to our money?

[cambridgealex]

raise to 80 and fold shove.

I liked this idea for a while, but decided there are not many raise sizes that don't set up a good shove spot for villain. Raise-folding is just inviting him to our money?

I'd be comfortable doing that if I suspected villain would never bluff shove the river. This includes almost everyone that has ever set foot in that game though. He's not going to think "I've got top pair but now I might turn it into a bluff as his range his capped and he can never have a set".

So I think the risk of getting bluffed off the best hand is almost 0. However I don't think he calls with worse very often, you're gonna get shown aces up a lot if you raise and get called or K7, KT. What worse 2 pair can he have? Don't think he bets the turn with T7, or indeed calls your large raise. He has a whole bunch of Ax in his range, and if you believe the dynamic you two have might lead him to paying you off with Ax then go ahead and raise. Would need a fairly strong read though.

[kinboshi]

I'd just call the river.  But then again, I have a small willy.

[boldie]

raise to 80 and fold shove.

I liked this idea for a while, but decided there are not many raise sizes that don't set up a good shove spot for villain. Raise-folding is just inviting him to our money?

I hate raise folding. You're 250bb deep and will stick in 100 of those (including money already in the pot) and are then considering folding when you have 150 back?...Not for me, thanks.

Villain bet £4.50 into a £31.50 pot on the turn? what kind of a bet is that supposed to be?

Villain didn't raise pre so I expect to see Aces or Kings here VERY rarely. Tens, maybe.

I am not sure what to put villain on.JQ/KT etc definitely in his range as is AQ/AJ.
I don't know if we're ahead often enough to be very confident and getting our entire stack in so I probably just flat.

[nirvana]

Raise so he knows you have K3 and then reassess based on his response. One thing I know is that if he just calls you it is close but there will be nothing you can do then except enjoy a battle of wits over who declares first. Hope you did the right thing

[pleno1]

raise to 80 and fold shove.

I liked this idea for a while, but decided there are not many raise sizes that don't set up a good shove spot for villain. Raise-folding is just inviting him to our money?

I hate raise folding. You're 250bb deep and will stick in 100 of those (including money already in the pot) and are then considering folding when you have 150 back?...Not for me, thanks.

Villain bet £4.50 into a £31.50 pot on the turn? what kind of a bet is that supposed to be?

Villain didn't raise pre so I expect to see Aces or Kings here VERY rarely. Tens, maybe.

I am not sure what to put villain on.JQ/KT etc definitely in his range as is AQ/AJ.
I don't know if we're ahead often enough to be very confident and getting our entire stack in so I probably just flat.

we are simply never going to be 3b bluffed on river here and he never ever 3bet flop for value with worse.

[skolsuper]

3b pre. Flat river.

[muckthenuts]

3b pre. Flat river.

+1 to 3bet pre. 3 weak ranges with an easy £21 in the pot and a K blocker. Suited cards position and a skill edge if someone decides to get stubborn which they'll do some of the time.

[cambridgealex]

3b pre. Flat river.

+1 to 3bet pre. 3 weak ranges with an easy £21 in the pot and a K blocker. Suited cards position and a skill edge if someone decides to get stubborn which they'll do some of the time.

+1 to everything except skill edge

[SuuPRlim]

much prefer a 3bet pre also, hate playing raggy suited cards for value even IP and pretty much everyone has joke weak preflop ranges

Live people are wierd, even live guys who game's i rate pretty highly do this thing where they bet weak value hands weak and strong value hands strong, so my initial reaction is he has a decent-ish value hand and doesn't want it to go chk/chk (or have to call a big bet) so finds a silly half pot bet as a compromise.

Problem is he could be a poor hand reader and be worried about sets and QJ, so thinking A7/AT is a good hand to do this with, and the other point is that usualy when half smart people do this they are planning to bet/fold.

So for these reasons i'd have counted out £115 to raise with then just thrown the top 7 £5 chips in and expect to have them returned to me within the next 25seconds

[cambridgealex]

much prefer a 3bet pre also, hate playing raggy suited cards for value even IP and pretty much everyone has joke weak preflop ranges

Live people are wierd, even live guys who game's i rate pretty highly do this thing where they bet weak value hands weak and strong value hands strong, so my initial reaction is he has a decent-ish value hand and doesn't want it to go chk/chk (or have to call a big bet) so finds a silly half pot bet as a compromise.

Problem is he could be a poor hand reader and be worried about sets and QJ, so thinking A7/AT is a good hand to do this with, and the other point is that usualy when half smart people do this they are planning to bet/fold.

So for these reasons i'd have counted out £115 to raise with then just thrown the top 7 £5 chips in and expect to have them returned to me within the next 25seconds

Chuck in the 35, then say raise, dealer rules it has to go as a call, do a giant pretend fling of the hands in the air, say ffs meant to raise. you win the pot and don't get called a nit - ez.

[kinboshi]

much prefer a 3bet pre also, hate playing raggy suited cards for value even IP and pretty much everyone has joke weak preflop ranges

Live people are wierd, even live guys who game's i rate pretty highly do this thing where they bet weak value hands weak and strong value hands strong, so my initial reaction is he has a decent-ish value hand and doesn't want it to go chk/chk (or have to call a big bet) so finds a silly half pot bet as a compromise.

Problem is he could be a poor hand reader and be worried about sets and QJ, so thinking A7/AT is a good hand to do this with, and the other point is that usualy when half smart people do this they are planning to bet/fold.

So for these reasons i'd have counted out £115 to raise with then just thrown the top 7 £5 chips in and expect to have them returned to me within the next 25seconds

Chuck in the 35, then say raise, dealer rules it has to go as a call, do a giant pretend fling of the hands in the air, say ffs meant to raise. you win the pot and don't get called a nit - ez.

Go to fold, and then shove £1K of chips over the line by mistake.