PLO HAND/THEORY

[GreekStein]

This hand was played by a blonde who is in my PLO group for the pokerfarm. Our whole group has been talking about this on Skype for 2 days and opinions are split.

I'm not going to give away my opinions cos I don't wanna influence anyone's thinking.

***** Hand History for Game 2985382004 ***** (IPoker)
$200.00 USD PL Omaha - Sunday, October 16, 06:16:20 ET 2011
Table Fable (No DP 50 bb min) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: ttttaatttt ( $250.60 USD )
Seat 3: Redwalked ( $258.24 USD )
Seat 5: Jahangir1111111 ( $256.45 USD )
Seat 6: POKERENCOREFAN ( $399.50 USD )
Seat 8: run8KK ( $201.00 USD )
Seat 10: IngaZaionts ( $169.27 USD )
run8KK posts small blind [$1.00 USD].
IngaZaionts posts big blind [$2.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to POKERENCOREFAN [  Ah ]
ttttaatttt folds
Redwalked raises [$7.00 USD]
POKERENCOREFAN calls [$7.00 USD]
run8KK folds
IngaZaionts calls [$5.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
IngaZaionts checks
Redwalked bets [$16.00 USD]
POKERENCOREFAN ??

Ok so do we:

a) flat
b) raise. (If raise, please comment on your sizing).

What then is your plan for the following turns assuming they get checked into you.

a)
b)
c)
d)
e)
f)

[GreekStein]

Assume no knowledge or reads on opponent.

[boldie]

Raise to $40, fairly draw heavy board and we have the nuts..get plenty moneys in now.


A; Assuming it's checked to us I bet.
b); Meh, if checked to us I check. No need to over inflate the pot. Might call river depending on oppo and whether he bets into us.
c) I bet if checked to me. 89 (Assuming no clubs) should really not be in..GL to him if he is, he becomes my buddy)
d) YIPPPEEE!...always difficult this...I am never quite sure how to get paid..when I check back the fold when I bet on the turn and I think "OH cock, should have bet". Fine with either option TBH.
e) Same as D..more likely to check now though as he might bet into me on the river more.
f) Bet (Probably around 2/3rds of the pot)

[SuuPRlim]

any reason why we didn't 3bet pre? Redwalked is hardly a nit, I think this is defo a 3bet.

In a vacuum I think its a pretty easy raise OTF, for reasons Boldie states, however from a range perspective I think its really important to have sets in your range ON THE TURN after you've flatted, so when you have a weaker part of your range you cant get blown off so easy on board pairs/dry turns + you realise your equity with draws more often. however if I'm flatting sets in this spot I'd really prefer to flat TT than KK as there is a slighter higher chance we've coolered him when we have top set + on this exact board there are several draw combo's we can be raising  /  etc (or at least shoudl be raising if we wanna raise KK - although i have a feeling we might not be raising them as we didn;t 3bet pre here) so that might widen the range he stacks off here OTF.

SO i'd be flatting some but raising the majority of the time here, I'd say 75/25 in favor of raising, and prolly the reverse for TT - you will get a LOT of folds raising here though as his range is still pretty weak and we look very strong. I'd raise pot(ish) although in a vacuum 40-45 is prolly better.

Pot is $54 after we flat....

a) bet $36
b) check
c) bet $36, although its close to a check IMO
d) bet $32
e) bet $36
f) bet $44

[GreekStein]

When you raise on the flop, what size do you make it Dave?

[GreekStein]

Raise to $40, fairly draw heavy board and we have the nuts..get plenty moneys in now.


A; Assuming it's checked to us I bet.
b); Meh, if checked to us I check. No need to over inflate the pot. Might call river depending on oppo and whether he bets into us.
c) I bet if checked to me. 89 (Assuming no clubs) should really not be in..GL to him if he is, he becomes my buddy)
d) YIPPPEEE!...always difficult this...I am never quite sure how to get paid..when I check back the fold when I bet on the turn and I think "OH cock, should have bet". Fine with either option TBH.
e) Same as D..more likely to check now though as he might bet into me on the river more.
f) Bet (Probably around 2/3rds of the pot)

Why do you choose 40 as your raise size Boldie?

[GreekStein]

any reason why we didn't 3bet pre? Redwalked is hardly a nit, I think this is defo a 3bet.

Assume no knowledge or reads on opponent.

[SuuPRlim]

any reason why we didn't 3bet pre? Redwalked is hardly a nit, I think this is defo a 3bet.

Assume no knowledge or reads on opponent.

you dont 3bet this readless? shamefully nitty imo.

[SuuPRlim]

When you raise on the flop, what size do you make it Dave?

i would raise the pot. In a vacuum obv a smaller $45~ is better but pot reps a draw better imo, meaning weak draws fold a higher % and mid-strong made hands continue a higher %

[boldie]

Raise to $40, fairly draw heavy board and we have the nuts..get plenty moneys in now.


A; Assuming it's checked to us I bet.
b); Meh, if checked to us I check. No need to over inflate the pot. Might call river depending on oppo and whether he bets into us.
c) I bet if checked to me. 89 (Assuming no clubs) should really not be in..GL to him if he is, he becomes my buddy)
d) YIPPPEEE!...always difficult this...I am never quite sure how to get paid..when I check back the fold when I bet on the turn and I think "OH cock, should have bet". Fine with either option TBH.
e) Same as D..more likely to check now though as he might bet into me on the river more.
f) Bet (Probably around 2/3rds of the pot)

Why do you choose 40 as your raise size Boldie?

I reckon $40 is enough to;

A; either get him to 4bet me and so get all his chippies in the middle
B; get him to call.

I don't want to scare anyone out of the pot unnecessarily but A is my biggest reason.

[pleno1]

3bet pre we even have thre suited ace blockarrrrgghhhhhhojvtitgtigjgifd.

i raise becuase he can get it in with lots of hands that he believes he has good equity with and we haz top set. This may be terrible though, I would go against potting because i would never pot in any situ, so i guess, $44-50

[SuuPRlim]

3bet pre we even have thre suited ace blockarrrrgghhhhhhojvtitgtigjgifd.

i raise becuase he can get it in with lots of hands that he believes he has good equity with and we haz top set. This may be terrible though, I would go against potting because i would never pot in any situ, so i guess, $44-50

if we had we'd be potting.

[zerofive]

Ok so do we:

a) flat
b) raise. (If raise, please comment on your sizing).

What then is your plan for the following turns assuming they get checked into you.

a)
b)
c)
d)
e)
f)

First thing that crossed my mind is why aren't we 3betting pre? Only reason to ever flat is if a player in the blinds has a ridic 3bet stat, but we're "readless," so 100% raising.

Also, if by readless, you mean our opponents have no reads on us, then for balance I make it $45 here to rep a draw and probably a lot of air. Of course we can have sets in our range if we raise, but most players aren't going to auto give credit for a strong hand on this board when we're raising in position. Raising also gives us a good chance to get it all in by the river.

So let's say we've raised and we get called in one spot, pot is $112 -

- Bet $65, and probably fold if we get checkraised
- Check back because we either rep this card and he folds worse, or he has it.
- Bet $72/get it in?
- Take a screenshot and take legal action versus iPoker, because we have this card in our hand
- This is close, but he can have sets and aces, so I bet $80
- Bet $72

[SuuPRlim]

I'm surprised that people think raising to $45 reps a draw more than potting it, in my mind raising to $45 reps top set.

[GreekStein]

no reads on us, then for balance I make it $45 here to rep a draw and probably a lot of air. Of course we can have sets in our range if we raise, but most players aren't going to auto give credit for a strong hand on this board when we're raising in position.

none of this makes any real sense to me

why do we give a shit about balance in this particular spot if its vs an unknown?

Why does $45 rep a draw and not a set? Is there any reasoning behind that

People never raise these flops with air. Like less than 2% of the time imo so I don't agree that we rep air at all.

Why wouldn't players give credit for us hand a strong hand when we raise IP? By the simple fact we're raising (and allowing the betting to be re-reraised) I think we are repping either a v strong made hand or draw.