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Author Topic: THEORY: MIN4b btn vs blinds  (Read 1988 times)
pleno1
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« on: November 10, 2011, 09:53:08 AM »

Hey crated this a month or so again with one of the guys I was coaching (shout out to max who helped me with this Smiley). Posted it on my blog and then took it off for a couple of reasons, but dont really care about those reasons anymore. I've been using it quite alot and had mostly positive results. Lemme know your thoughts and suggestions on how to improve/change things a little bit to make myself less exploitable in certain situations etc. Put as much bold in as possible to try and make it not TL;DR Smiley



Min 4B - BU vs Blinds with a depolarized range


Example


I raise to 3bbs otb, bb 3bets to 10bb, i 4bet to 16/17 bbs.

 

First thoughts about this concept:


 

People will fold too much because they don’t want to play a 4B pot OOP

People will call too much, because they get a good price, with dominated hands

5B will be more likely especially when deep

I think this is very important to do this against a depolarized range otherwise they get too good price for set mining when they 3B PP or to call with SC etc…

 

1)      Why is it good for bluffing


 

The bluff is very cheap. We put 14bb to win 13bb.

Since the bluff is cheap we might 4B PP like 22-99 and fold to a 5B

 

2)      Why is it good for value


 

The whole idea behind it is to get dominated hands to call (that would fold to a normal 4B) and get some more value when they hit TP with worse kicker. In a 4B pot they would probably not fold it.

 

 

 

A)  Tight 3B range: TT+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+,KJo+

 

Let’s consider the following 3B depolarized range (8.9% - 118 combos) with 100bb:

TT+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+,KJo+

 

Villain will 5B for value with (2.56% - 34 combos):

QQ+, AK


 

Villain will fold the following (2.71% - 36 combos):

ATs, KJs, QJs, AJo, KQo, KJo

 

Villain will call the following (3.62% - 48 combos):

JJ-TT, AQ, AJs, KQs

 

Villain will fold 30% of the time.

 

As can be seen from the calling range if we do this with AQ, AK every time there is a Q or a K on the flop we get great value.

Our min4B value range is:

QQ+, AQ+ (3.77% - 50 combos)

 

As a bluff we want our range to have maximum equity vs his calling range.

Our min4B bluffing range should be:

22-99, 56s-JTs, 86s-T8s (6.33% - 84 combos) with which we have 41% equity vs his calling range. I don’t think we should be min4Betting with Axs bc his calling range contains loads of A so we want a better kicker.

 

So our min4B range would be 10% with 2/1 ratio bluff/value

 

 

I) Post flop play

 

Villain will call the following (2.41% - 32 combos):

JJ-TT, AQ-AJ, KQ

 

1)      Low boards


 

With our bluffing range we will probably pick up some equity so we CBet

 

With AK,AQ I think we should Check back because TT and JJ is not folding and he will

fold all his worse hands. Hands that we can get value from if the turn brings a Q or a K.

 

With QQ+ we want to CBet to get value from TT-JJ that would bluff catch.

 

 

 

2)      A high boards

 

He has 53% of the time an A. So we can Cbet small and it would be profitable. If he calls the CBet we give up

 

With AK,AQ value bet.

 

3)      K or Q high board

 

With AK or AQ Value bet

 

With the rest Check back and give up.

 

 

Sizing of the CBet. On the flop there is 35bb in the pot. We CBet 15bb for value and as a bluff. We then have 68bb on the turn into a 65bb pot so we can shove with our value hands. We could also Check back some of the time to balance when we Check our bluffing range.

 

 

II) EV of min4B

 

When villain 5B we 6B (or call if 5B is a shove) with QQ+,AK

 

EV= when he folds + when he 5B and we fold (75% of the time) + when he 5B and we call (25% of the time) + the EV of when he calls

 

EV= 0.3*13+ 0.29*[0.75*(-14)+0.25*(0.5*(27)-14)] + EV when he calls

EV= +0.82 + EV when he calls.

 

As seen in the post flop play section, when he calls this is very profitable because we get massive value on K and Q high boards, take the pot down almost always on low boards and we give up and not invest more than the 4B in the other situations.

 

So overall I think that this is a very profitable move.

 

When deep 5B/Fold will become an option. It doesn’t necesseraly mean that the min4B is bad but I will have to think about it more.

 


 

B)   Loose 3B range: 99+, A8s+, A5s-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, ATo+, KJo+, QJo


 

 

Let’s consider the following 3B depolarized range (14.78% - 196 combos) with 100bb:

99+, A8s+, A5s-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, ATo+, KJo+, QJo

 

Villain will 5B for value with (2.56% - 34 combos) (17% of the time):

QQ+, AK

 

Villain will fold the following (4.22% - 56 combos):

A8s, A5s-A2s, K9s, Q9s, J9s, ATo, QJo

 

Villain will call the following (7.99% - 106 combos):

JJ-99, AQs-A9s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KJo+

 

Villain will fold 28% of the time.

 

Our min4B value range could be the following:

QQ+, AJ+, KQ (6.18% - 82 combos)

With this value range we dominate all his Kx,Qx and Jx type of hands.

 

As a bluff we want our range to have maximum equity vs his calling range.

Our min4B bluffing range could be:

88-22, A5s-A2s, 56s-T9s, 86s-J9s (7.09% - 94 combos)

This range is slightly wider than in the tight 3B range example because he will 3B A2s-A5s and fold them so I think we should have them in our bluffing range. Apart from this it is the same range made of SCs, PPs, and 1sGappers

 

with which we have 42% equity vs his calling range.

 

So our 4B range is 13.27% - 176 combos with about 1/1 ratio bluff/value.

 

I) Post flop play

 

Villain will call the following (7.99% - 106 combos):

JJ-99, AQs-A9s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KJo+

 

1)      Low boards

 

With our bluffing range we will probably pick up some equity so we CBet

 

With AJ+ I think we should Check back because 99-JJ is not folding and he will fold all his worse hands. Hands that we can get value from if the turn brings J, Q or K.

 

With QQ+ we want to CBet to get value from TT-JJ that would bluff catch.

 

2)      A high boards

 

He has 37% of the time an A.

 

With our bluffing range we can Cbet small and it would be profitable. If he calls the CBet we give up (even with our A2s-A5s). It is even more profitable than in the tight 3B range example because villain has less A in his range.

 

With AJ+,AA value bet.

 

With QQ and KK we should Check back because he is not folding Ax and we are ahead of the rest.

 

3)      K, Q or J high board

 

With AJ+ Value bet

 

With the rest Check back and give up.

 

 

Sizing of the CBet. On the flop there is 35bb in the pot. We CBet 15bb for value and as a bluff. We then have 68bb on the turn into a 65bb pot so we can shove with our value hands. We could also Check back some of the time to balance when we Check our bluffing range.

 

 

II) EV of min4B

 

When villain 5B we 6B (or call if 5B is a shove) with QQ+,AK

 

EV= when he folds + when he 5B and we fold (% of the time) + when he 5B and we call (% of the time) + the EV of when he calls

 

EV= 0.28*13+ 0.17*[0.81 * (-14) + 0.19*(0.5*(201)-100)] + EV of when he calls

EV= +1.625 + EV when he calls

 

As in the previous example the beauty of the min4B move is that we get great EV when he calls so it is overall greatly +EV

 

I didn’t include any 5B bluff here. But what we have to keep in mind is that with 100bb there is no 5B/Fold so I think that ppl will probably have an honest 5B range – 5B bluffing range could be 99-TT (in which case we have to 6B JJ+,AK)

This will dramatically change if we are 150bb and I will not cover this as it gets very complicated.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 10:04:29 AM by pleno1 » Logged

Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
pleno1
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2011, 09:54:09 AM »

Evidence:

** Hand # 4083962577 starting - 2011-09-15 21:53:50
** Anon Holdem 11 - €100 Max [Hold'em] (0.50|1 NL - Cash Game) Real Money

Player 1 sitting in seat 1 with €106.39
Player 2 sitting in seat 2 with €344.63
Hero sitting in seat 3 with €102.00[Dealer]
Player 5 sitting in seat 5 with €105.50
Player 6 sitting in seat 6 with €72.06
Player 5 posted the small blind - €0.50
Player 6 posted the big blind - €1.00

** Dealing cards to plenofkn1:   
Player 1 folded
Player 2 folded
Hero raised to €3.00
Player 5 raised to €9.00
Player 6 folded
Hero raised to €18.00
Player 5 called - €18.00

** Dealing the flop:    two spades 
Player 5 checked
Herobet - €14.00
Player 5 raised to €28.00
Herocalled - €28.00

** Dealing the turn: 
Player 5 went all-in - €59.50
Hero went all-in - €56.00

** Dealing the river: 
Player 5 shows:   
Heroshows:     
Hero wins €202.00 from the main pot

Rake: €3
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 10:00:27 AM by pleno1 » Logged

Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
muckthenuts
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2011, 01:59:42 PM »

I know AEJones agrees with you. He's been 2x 4betting in position in online midstakes 6max
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pleno1
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2011, 02:08:05 PM »

I think raptor accidentily took this line too as he liked to strategically goofball around in the first 200 hands of HU.
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
MTT DESTROYER
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2011, 05:00:58 PM »

What was your 4 bet size before?Huh?
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pleno1
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 05:21:35 PM »

in cash games its usually bigger, his 3beet size is small.

So for example I get 3bet to 10x which is standard I will 4bet to 18x or smaller instead of the usually 22-24ish
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
muckthenuts
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2011, 11:26:06 PM »

I think raptor accidentily took this line too as he liked to strategically goofball around in the first 200 hands of HU.

So Raptor did this so people would think he was bad? It seems hard for 4betting small in position to be a terrible play 100bb or so deep, rarely does anyone flat this ever oop anymore and i agree when you say people will need to have an honest 5b range so it works well to do it more holding hands with blockers eg QJ KJ as well as monsters. Skimmed through your analysis overall it seems pretty sound.
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 01:36:09 AM »

I know AEJones agrees with you. He's been 2x 4betting in position in online midstakes 6max

dunno how hes still allowed to produce videos tbh, maybe in the gravy days of fish crushing but seems pointless to listen to his whiny voice now.
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mondatoo
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 02:05:26 AM »

I know AEJones agrees with you. He's been 2x 4betting in position in online midstakes 6max

dunno how hes still allowed to produce videos tbh, maybe in the gravy days of fish crushing but seems pointless to listen to his whiny voice now.

You watch any of Martin Giggy's video's ? <3 Giggy, great videos, but also he's absolutely hilarious. Legend.
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 03:26:20 AM »

I know AEJones agrees with you. He's been 2x 4betting in position in online midstakes 6max

dunno how hes still allowed to produce videos tbh, maybe in the gravy days of fish crushing but seems pointless to listen to his whiny voice now.

You watch any of Martin Giggy's video's ? <3 Giggy, great videos, but also he's absolutely hilarious. Legend.


etchetera etchetera!
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pleno1
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2011, 08:15:44 AM »

I think raptor accidentily took this line too as he liked to strategically goofball around in the first 200 hands of HU.

So Raptor did this so people would think he was bad? It seems hard for 4betting small in position to be a terrible play 100bb or so deep, rarely does anyone flat this ever oop anymore and i agree when you say people will need to have an honest 5b range so it works well to do it more holding hands with blockers eg QJ KJ as well as monsters. Skimmed through your analysis overall it seems pretty sound.

typing on spanish iPad so sorry if comes out mueble jun. le

he triad to play rally unconventinal ny min bettng in write spots and 4betting write unbalanced amounts so Guat. mr bumhunt erg would be Nike ohhhhh yea lets strap in for a big one with tris yute shake. anyway he Sión starter rereadjusting and owned pretty much all the mediocre to decent ergs Guat. we lime etc. he starter making vídeos for cafetín era and it stopped being so effective. if you search his hu vídeos on cafetín era then you Williams see
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
Boba Fett
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« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2011, 06:43:27 PM »

I think raptor accidentily took this line too as he liked to strategically goofball around in the first 200 hands of HU.

So Raptor did this so people would think he was bad? It seems hard for 4betting small in position to be a terrible play 100bb or so deep, rarely does anyone flat this ever oop anymore and i agree when you say people will need to have an honest 5b range so it works well to do it more holding hands with blockers eg QJ KJ as well as monsters. Skimmed through your analysis overall it seems pretty sound.

typing on spanish iPad so sorry if comes out mueble jun. le

he triad to play rally unconventinal ny min bettng in write spots and 4betting write unbalanced amounts so Guat. mr bumhunt erg would be Nike ohhhhh yea lets strap in for a big one with tris yute shake. anyway he Sión starter rereadjusting and owned pretty much all the mediocre to decent ergs Guat. we lime etc. he starter making vídeos for cafetín era and it stopped being so effective. if you search his hu vídeos on cafetín era then you Williams see
lol Senor
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Ya gotta crawl before ya ball!
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