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Author Topic: Stakers & Stakees - Collusion issues in live MTTs  (Read 15577 times)
AlexMartin
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2011, 01:18:29 PM »

i personally just think you should treat them as any other player; you wont be necessarily going out of your way to get involved/exploit them (because you bought a piece so i assume you rate their game). Play hard imo. Saves all the nonsense.



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George2Loose
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2011, 01:28:20 PM »

Not flaming u Frankie cos its still a tough spot but u were in the big blind
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2011, 01:30:03 PM »

If i was playing against my mum id of stuck the JJ right in her eye!
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2011, 01:45:43 PM »

I'm pretty sure he was SB as I was BB, The open was in the HJ/CO and Jack had shipped the Button. So he had me and the original raiser left to act.

This thread isn't about that hand though, it's about the issues it sparked.
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Rupert
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2011, 06:33:40 PM »

Well you can look at it from the other side too, what if the horse starts jamming wider into the backer because they know they can't call?  Collusion?  Deliberately screwing the backer?  Or just playing well?

There was a hand in San Remo where I 3 bet a guy simply based on the fact I'd sold action to him and he couldn't really play back without a monster.  Scumbag?
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2011, 06:36:50 PM »

Well you can look at it from the other side too, what if the horse starts jamming wider into the backer because they know they can't call?  Collusion?  Deliberately screwing the backer?  Or just playing well?

There was a hand in San Remo where I 3 bet a guy simply based on the fact I'd sold action to him and he couldn't really play back without a monster.  Scumbag?

Yeh Smiley

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kukushkin88
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« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2011, 06:41:05 PM »

My view would be that it corrupts the game absolutely and completely if players have multiple undeclared financial interests in their competitors/opponents.
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Rupert
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« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2011, 06:42:54 PM »

My view would be that it corrupts the game absolutely and completely if players have multiple undeclared financial interests in their competitors/opponents.

lol some solid hyperbole here.  What about if a guy folds AA on the bubble because the money means a lot to him because he's broke.  Is he meant to declare how busto he is pre tournament?
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2011, 06:54:33 PM »

My view would be that it corrupts the game absolutely and completely if players have multiple undeclared financial interests in their competitors/opponents.

lol some solid hyperbole here.  What about if a guy folds AA on the bubble because the money means a lot to him because he's broke.  Is he meant to declare how busto he is pre tournament?

Would you want to play a tournament where all of your opponents played from the same stable/backer? Not trying to be argumentative by the way, just seems to me like it is bound to create situations where collusion is almost unavoidable.
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GreekStein
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2011, 06:56:01 PM »

 Scumbag?

yep
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Rupert
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« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2011, 07:01:06 PM »

Quote
Would you want to play a tournament where all of your opponents played from the same stable/backer? Not trying to be argumentative by the way, just seems to me like it is bound to create situations where collusion is almost unavoidable.

Well yes, there is no incentive between horses to battle each other so that would just be business as normal.  If it was a conglomerate of 50 backers and 50 of their horses in the tournament and I couldn't identify who was a backer and who was a horse but everyone else knew it would be a bit odd.  But I probably still wouldn't mind.  Especially if I get to bust some of Keys' horses
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2011, 07:04:16 PM »

Quote
Would you want to play a tournament where all of your opponents played from the same stable/backer? Not trying to be argumentative by the way, just seems to me like it is bound to create situations where collusion is almost unavoidable.

Well yes, there is no incentive between horses to battle each other so that would just be business as normal.  If it was a conglomerate of 50 backers and 50 of their horses in the tournament and I couldn't identify who was a backer and who was a horse but everyone else knew it would be a bit odd.  But I probably still wouldn't mind.  Especially if I get to bust some of Keys' horses

OK cool, I´m sure you´ve thought this through in a fair bit more depth than I have (we´ll probably agree to disagree a little). Back to the christmas celebrations for me. Congrats on all the success in the last year, very impressive.
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2011, 07:27:44 PM »

Quote
Would you want to play a tournament where all of your opponents played from the same stable/backer? Not trying to be argumentative by the way, just seems to me like it is bound to create situations where collusion is almost unavoidable.

Well yes, there is no incentive between horses to battle each other so that would just be business as normal.  If it was a conglomerate of 50 backers and 50 of their horses in the tournament and I couldn't identify who was a backer and who was a horse but everyone else knew it would be a bit odd.  But I probably still wouldn't mind.  Especially if I get to bust some of Keys' horses


lol 
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Da Bookie
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« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2011, 10:04:39 PM »

I think this is a great thread and opens questions about where we want our sport/game to go in the future. If we want poker to be anything but a niche sport then this kind of thing needs to be discussed throughout the game. It is not good for major events to be seen in this light. It has always been my opinion ( my opinion which I am entitled to ) that deals should not be allowed in European ranking events as they devalue the event.
      As staking is widespread in the game I think that at the start of a final table in a European ranking/major event any such relevant financial involvement should be stated as it will have at sometimes but not allways have a bearing on the dynamic of the play at that final table.
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2011, 10:16:05 PM »

I think this is a great thread and opens questions about where we want our sport/game to go in the future. If we want poker to be anything but a niche sport then this kind of thing needs to be discussed throughout the game. It is not good for major events to be seen in this light. It has always been my opinion ( my opinion which I am entitled to ) that deals should not be allowed in European ranking events as they devalue the event.
      As staking is widespread in the game I think that at the start of a final table in a European ranking/major event any such relevant financial involvement should be stated as it will have at sometimes but not allways have a bearing on the dynamic of the play at that final table.

how is that realistically possible?


If I have a well known staking agreement with a horse and he is on the same ft it will be easy enough for people to know about, if an utter random I put in happens to luckbox his way there and not a single person except the two of us know then why should we tell anyone. At what point does it become collusion.


In the poker world I really cant imagine you'd get people being 'that' honest about who stakes who, it'd be so funny to hear who truly actually has money and which large proportion of the field is put in by other people. When someone is listed as anonymous do we get to know what financial deals they have done if they FT etc etc?

Rupert made an excellent point in his post in that it works both ways. When I sit down at a cash game with a close friend even if no word has been spoken between us there would be a shared knowledge that we are most likely to win more money off other people than each other, and that there is no point us playing super aggressively against each other and trying to push small edges. For that reason we often end up absolutely spacking it off with weak holdings and then look like utter goons (this deffo didn't just happen in prague with K high sigh). Is it collusion that we are going to showdown with terribly weak holdings in large pots,or is it just that were both utterly terrible?!


Similarly imagine I am playing in a 9 handed game of liveaments. To my right I have my favourite poker player Stuart Bopkin, he is grinding away like a true hero. He raises and I am on the dolly with dem Aces, it just also so happens that the two fair gentlemen in the blinds are utter spewboxes who are desperate to wager all their betting discs. Is it working together with Bopkin if I flat call to bring the two kind sirs into the hand rather than 3bet and potentially push them both out of the pot? If I am friends with Stuart is it collusion even though we have never mentioned anything with regards to this preflop spot? In many cases though a 3bet can show a profit and is a good play, it can be more profitable to flat call and allow the weaker players in with hands that play well in that type of spot, by doing so it allows the bopkinator to see a flop and realise equity and sometimes stack me/the fish however it is still the best play for me preflop. So have I colluded with the Bopkin etc etc.
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