4bp In pos hero/ villan lines- ranges?

[jgcblack]

Firstly I'd like to say thanks to blonde, its mods and all its posters.. I have been using the site for a while (without being active) and enjoying/ learning and discussing it most days.. with blonde's and non blonde's alike.

Now down to business and its my first post so please be gentle.. (also been playing since 1pm yest and just driven home so might ramble)

Live 1/2 uncapped DTD

We have £400ish (in for £500 Villain is unaware of this) - he covers.  I'll keep names out of it at the moment, this is to check both our lines and my thought process during the hand.. results once a few people have put 'their' ranges up.

7 handed
Villain in question is 'new' to the table, a well known winning DTD reg and we believe a good hand reader both pre and post flop.

Having been called over by another DTD reg villain sits with 600ish

We have the big black thing with the word 'BUTTON' on it (think it means raise in some foreign language) and Villain is in the seat to our right..
We have NO history with villain and no hands..

We have played very few hands in 5-10 orbits and had a few 'decisions' to make, having the clock called in one spot where we played AA's terribly.. n didn't stack KK (nother story).  However the three seats to our right contain 3 DTD 'regs' I believe all winning and we're rather sure they're friendly in the least.  So them passing on any information about us having seen so few flops and appearing quite nitty (cos we was being a nit) are likely to have been passed on.  Potentially that we're 'scared money' and that big bets scare us..

Knowing that Villain is a winning DTD reg in the 1/2's and believe also in the 2/5 we expect him to be thinking about both our hand and what his looks like at all stages.  We don't expect him to spazz or blowup but establishing a table presence when he has pos on who I think he considers to likely be the 'other best players' is more than probable imo.



Hand is as follows..

V opens CO to £7
We 3bt BTN to £19, fold sb, fold bb
V smoothly but not to quick or slowly 4bts to £45
we take 20-30secs or so and slide in some betting discs to match him..

(At this point we aren't surprised to see a 4bt, and we definitely don't think he just has the top few hands)


FLOP
  (suits might be wrong but no biggy)

V cbet of £55, we take our time and call


TURN
think it is still rainbow but I might be wrong about this..

V takes his time, looks us up and down.. as we look at the board and then bets £102

We take a bit more time and put in a £100 and a £2.


River



V swiftly announces an 'All In' bet..





What I'd like to discuss is the likely ranges for both players at each point.. arriving at reasonable bluff/ value ranges given no history, no reason to think either is spewy or out of line and only some limited information that may or may not have been passed on that we seem on the snugger side of things.. possibly even scared money.


I will now sleep and deliberate some more myself on this and post my own reads/ ideas/ ranges and 'plan' for the hand both pre and post (there was a plan with our hand) when I awaken.


I would appreciate all comments/ criticism's about both the hand and the post itself (have to learn somehow).


Thanks,

JB

[muckthenuts]

Unless i've missed it somehow, did you really manage to write all that and at not one point mention the hand you had?

[chatban]

So you asking us to put you both n a range? And then asking us how we will play each street according to our range? With no information about much?

The only thingi can comment on is you saying they may think you are scared money? I dont think i hear people say that much tbf. Out leveling yourself probably.

[SuuPRlim]

Hi Mate, welcome to PHA.

Unfortunatley I can't help you here, you're basically asking me to say what I'd expect someone who I don't know to 4bet against the 3bet of someone I don't know either, and then to try and figure out what hands I'd do what with down the streets, it's almost impossible to answer without complete guesswork, and If i was somehow able to answer this then the information I give you would be kind of pointless because no doubt me and you have different styles and different images.

What I would do If I were you, is explain the hand, what you had and breifly describe some game flow and table dynamics you think are relevant with your thought processes and we'll try pick up some errors/good points for analysis - the villain doubtless posts on blonde (there is no chance he'll come ITT and say why he does what with X hand) but there is a good chance he'll pop into the thread and provide some imparshal advice as he will be the best for it as he was there and will have a proper grasp on the table flop at that point.

Would steer clear of these "what is your range in XY spot" threads unless it's a pretty simple MTT spot as it's just too hard to answer.

Hope this helps

David

[Pinchop73]

Depends really.

Was villain eating 3 meals at the time?

Or did he look like a cross schoolboy who'd just had his lunch money stolen?

Or was he so large that he took up two spots, yet played less hands than 3 ultra nits combined?

If it was A, snap him and his pudding off otr with Jack high.

If it was B, then a strong Ace is a massive part of his range, I'd only walk down the streets with him light if there were serious dynamics. I.e. I don't envisage him bluffing this spot with zero info on his villain. Therefore only calling river with Qx, AK. Your ahead of not much else.

If it was C then fold pre as he never bets that flop with less than AA.

[edgascoigne]

Depends really.

Was villain eating 3 meals at the time?

Or did he look like a cross schoolboy who'd just had his lunch money stolen?

Or was he so large that he took up two spots, yet played less hands than 3 ultra nits combined?

If it was A, snap him and his pudding off otr with Jack high.

If it was B, then a strong Ace is a massive part of his range, I'd only walk down the streets with him light if there were serious dynamics. I.e. I don't envisage him bluffing this spot with zero info on his villain. Therefore only calling river with Qx, AK. Your ahead of not much else.

If it was C then fold pre as he never bets that flop with less than AA.

Great poast.

[tikay]

LilDave got me to accept "speshly" & "prolly", now he's widened his range to include "imparshal".

I think I'm falling for him.

[cambridgealex]

LilDave got me to accept "speshly" & "prolly", now he's widened his range to include "imparshal".

I think I'm falling for him.

I thought "imparshal" was particularly vomit-inducing.

[jgcblack]

Sure,

I guess no info on hands was because I wanted to try to 'rep' the top of my range.. and as such to tell in you I had the  and a  is obv bad right from the off.  I wanted to see what people would think about what he will do with his value 4bts which could possibly be as wide as 10's+ AJs+ - esp vs a btn 3bt..?  IMO you only need to throw a few '4bt bluffs' like a 56s or Axs for this to become an easy call pre with any two vs someone who is thinking enough to fold a real hand against an unknown.  (or maybe we're just trying to be a 'hero'..)

I decided to flat the 4bt because I think he is likely to assume that I will 5bt all my AA, KK, QQ, AK type hands initially.. but then I want to use my post flop action to make him realise that I wouldn't in this spot and that by the river I will basically have no value hand worse than AK..

tbh on the river I actually expect him to be cf everything except AK and AA exactly.. optimistic?

When I flat the flop I think we can both still have lots of hands.. Axx r is no excuse for either of us to fold a pair to one bet.  I give him credit for being able to barrell 2 streets with KK although obv he shouldn't be doing this all the time, esp vs an unknown in 4bp.

On the flop I've called because I think that AK is such a small part of his range, that by the river I think I should be able to make him fold the other 90%..  I would even suggest that he will flat AK pre some times as he will expect me to 'bluff' those cards should I not have a value hand.. and if I do have a value hand I 'could' 5bt big to make life hard for him (probably wouldn't though as said above).

On the turn he now "can't" have QQ as we have the blocker and I think our range looks exactly like AK, AQ.. would make sense that we might not want to 5bt a hand like this in pos and risk a 6bt for our stacks when 250bb deep.  We don't make any 'snap' actions in order to rep thinking about all the hands we could have (nuts and nothings) plus we would do this with value as we'd need to think about how to play the hand vs a competent villain.


And then well.. we flat the turn and we just bink what we needed to get a W.. so happy days and we snap his river shove.. with the best hand.  To say Villain wasn't happy is a little understatement..  But isn't our line really nutted?  Should I post his hand yet? or can we discuss my line vs his likely 4bt range/ play first?

John

[chatban]

Out leveling yourself ITT.

Nice river! You probably picked the nut low hand to defend with but hey.

I personally woould hope he had AQ so I didn't have to show.

[rfgqqabc]

QTo just flops terribly, and relying on making someone fold is definitively a bad thing, especially when the person in question is prob the best player on the table. You have a SPR of like 4, good luck getting someone off AK in a 4bet pot with a ace on the board, esp when he probably value shoved it at the end lol. Lots of FPS itt

[cambridgealex]

QTo just flops terribly, and relying on making someone fold is definitively a bad thing, especially when the person in question is prob the best player on the table. You have a SPR of like 4, good luck getting someone off AK in a 4bet pot with a ace on the board, esp when he probably value shoved it at the end lol. Lots of FPS itt

agreed. Is it Mitch btw?

FPS doesn't usually work on Mitch. He's on level one mate. Seriously.

[rfgqqabc]

QTo just flops terribly, and relying on making someone fold is definitively a bad thing, especially when the person in question is prob the best player on the table. You have a SPR of like 4, good luck getting someone off AK in a 4bet pot with a ace on the board, esp when he probably value shoved it at the end lol. Lots of FPS itt

agreed. Is it Mitch btw?

FPS doesn't usually work on Mitch. He's on level one mate. Seriously.

Stato

[cambridgealex]

QTo just flops terribly, and relying on making someone fold is definitively a bad thing, especially when the person in question is prob the best player on the table. You have a SPR of like 4, good luck getting someone off AK in a 4bet pot with a ace on the board, esp when he probably value shoved it at the end lol. Lots of FPS itt

agreed. Is it Mitch btw?

FPS doesn't usually work on Mitch. He's on level one mate. Seriously.

Stato

I bet he gave you (john) a really patronising look of bemusement and anger as you scooped the pot. it's the look that says "what the fuck are you doing".

[jgcblack]

As previously stated.. he definitely doesn't always have AK here.. and I don't expect him to always fold it.. but I also don't expect him to check snap the river when I'm pretty nutted here.

The main part of the point in question is that I think he should be struggling to play this river with anything except AK, AA.. i.e. what does Stato do here with KK, JJ, AJ and lower ranked hands.. I would be suprised if he does anything but check fold.. - obv I was 'think' shoving any river.. same as I would do with all my value hands.

I realise theres a teeny tiny bit of levelling ITT.. and you're right, the SPR of 4 probably makes it an 'abort' from the off..

I just don't see him flatting most of his range pre vs me in this spot.

crazy?