Interesting 1/2 Spot at the Vic

[edgascoigne]

Morning all,

Interesting spot from last night, would be interested to hear people's thoughts on the hand...

We are playing c£500, and have a relatively aggressive image. This said, whilst we have opened more than we perhaps should, we certainly haven't been out of line in any mid-big pots. A young kid has just joined c45mins ago, seems competent thus far having won a couple of nicely sized pots without having to show a card. Seems competent-aggro, also playing about £500.

We open    to £7 UTG+1. Passes all the way round to a chap playing c£700 who seems a little steamed who calls from the SB, and competent kid comes along from the BB.

Flop  (Pot is £21)

    

Checked to me, I lead for £16. SB folds, BB raises to £40.

At this point in time my logic is as follows - I've flopped v. big, and if I 3b here I fold out all his bluffs. I believe he'll continue on the turn with basically the entirety of his range, so I call.

Turn (Pot is £101)

 

Chap leads £60. I've obv now gone behind if he does indeed have clubs, but given I have top two, a full house draw and the second nut flush draw I decide to call and almost certainly call river.

River (Pot is £221)

 

Chap leads for £135. Our top two has 'improved' to the second nut flush.

WWYD and why?

Any critique on prior streets?

[Pinchop73]

Hmm. Otf the only part of his range that's semibluffing REALLY is KcXc. I doubt he flats worse clubs pre if your read that he's semi competent is correct, esp from an UTG+1 open.

So pretty much the only hands in his range otf are 33s, KcXc, a spazzy Arag, worse clubs, and a small amount of complete air.

Pretty sick runout. I find it very difficult to believe that you've found a sicko at £1/2 in the vic who's bet bet betting 33s/worse here. He'd surely check call worse clubs when this river lands.

I'd play all streets the same, chundah EVERYWAH when he barrels the river, do some muttley-esque muttering under my breath when I realise its impossible to fold even though his value range crushes us, then sigh, and very smoothly and calmly slide 6 ponies past the line, gently waving them away as they get scooped because I despise being bluffed.

[SuuPRlim]

pretty sure we haave to call here

[edgascoigne]

My original post doesn't quite place the stress in the right places reading it back.

Agree the river is a must-puke-call.


Thoughts on flop and turn?

[lolwutwasthat]

not saying river is a call but no idea why you said you were going to certainly call river but fold on this river. This river completely narrows his range down completely, he most certainly wouldnt show up with a small/medium flush vs you with no history/info. Hes also repping the same range otr as he is ott so if you really think he doesnt have it on the turn then river doesnt change anything and would be a snap and not a "puke call"

[SuuPRlim]

I think you played it fine, you're ofc right r.e the flop "keeping his bluffs in" and ofc the turn all we can do is call

I do think though that we should really consider a flop 3bet here though - this oppo doesn't sound like the type to be completely airballing on a board like this, sure he could be getting a bit out of line with someting like but his c/r range is just all value and semi-bluffs, we can assume he doesn't have AA or QQ hardly at all and if we're capable of bet 3/betting here I'm gonna be 3betting here a lot.

Not that the way you played the flop isn't good (may well be optimal) but every PHA post on here it seems that calling and not 3betting is the stnd play, which is a result of either people being a little overly fancy or people not (semi) bluffing these spots with enough frequency that 3betting the flop is the best play.

There is a lot of time where the GTO play just straight up costs you value in a vacuum and if the "long run" isn't that relevant like here it becomes non-optimal to play optimally.

As played on the river you have a villain who "appears" capable of bluffing here (although he doesn't have too many bluff combo's), turning hands into bluffs and value betting thin(ish) for value, speshly vs this river sizing

[cambridgealex]

I play all streets the same and call river. 3b the flop sometimes, but I prefer flatting and try and get a read from his turn/river actions/bet sizing as to whether he is full of it, or has it A3 or 33. On brick turns and rivers, like calling the turn then raising the river for thin value.

[edgascoigne]

Re: river I see myself passing against this specific opponent pretty darn rarely (<20%)

Against other opponents I can definitely find the fold button here, but felt like it would be pretty big mistake against villain as described (£135 to win £336).


Re: earlier streets....think turn as alluded to is a straightforward call. Flop is the interesting one where I think our decision is most difficult - I thought about 3b'ing, not sure what made me decide against it (think the perceived possibility of oppo barrelling off - he had been running table over since joining and not shown a card).

So, in conclusion, a cooler? (He shows up with    ) If I put in the 3rd bet I would imagine he actually passes the flop?

[Pinchop73]

I think vs this specific oppo 3b'ing the flop to say £100-110 would be burning money, because your NEVER calling the lot off when he ships (which he should do with 33 and KcXc).

We've already easily assigned him this range, so no need to put ourselves in a position where we need to decide which of these two very specific hands he actually has.

[cambridgealex]

I think vs this specific oppo 3b'ing the flop to say £100-110 would be burning money, because your NEVER calling the lot off when he ships (which he should do with 33 and KcXc).

We've already easily assigned him this range, so no need to put ourselves in a position where we need to decide which of these two very specific hands he actually has.

3betting the flop and then folding would be the most catastrophic disaster of all time.

[SuuPRlim]

I think vs this specific oppo 3b'ing the flop to say £100-110 would be burning money, because your NEVER calling the lot off when he ships (which he should do with 33 and KcXc).

We've already easily assigned him this range, so no need to put ourselves in a position where we need to decide which of these two very specific hands he actually has.

3betting the flop and then folding would be the most catastrophic disaster of all time.

DEFO, why the hell wouldn't we be 3bet/calling the flop?

[Pinchop73]

Your happy calling off 250bb's with just top two? Really though?

I mean I know the chances of him having AA/QQ here are super rare (especially considering blockers), but I'd need an extremely aggro dynamic to call this off in a live game as there are so few live players willing to shove the nut flush. What else are we ahead of that he shoves?

[stato_1]

I like the lot. WP imo

[WotRTheChances]

I like the lot. WP imo

+1

I think vs this specific oppo 3b'ing the flop to say £100-110 would be burning money, because your NEVER calling the lot off when he ships (which he should do with 33 and KcXc).

We've already easily assigned him this range, so no need to put ourselves in a position where we need to decide which of these two very specific hands he actually has.

lol'd. Basically behind to one hand.

[edgascoigne]

I like the lot. WP imo

+1

I think you played it fine, you're ofc right r.e the flop "keeping his bluffs in" and ofc the turn all we can do is call

I do think though that we should really consider a flop 3bet here though - this oppo doesn't sound like the type to be completely airballing on a board like this, sure he could be getting a bit out of line with someting like but his c/r range is just all value and semi-bluffs, we can assume he doesn't have AA or QQ hardly at all and if we're capable of bet 3/betting here I'm gonna be 3betting here a lot.

Not that the way you played the flop isn't good (may well be optimal) but every PHA post on here it seems that calling and not 3betting is the stnd play, which is a result of either people being a little overly fancy or people not (semi) bluffing these spots with enough frequency that 3betting the flop is the best play.

There is a lot of time where the GTO play just straight up costs you value in a vacuum and if the "long run" isn't that relevant like here it becomes non-optimal to play optimally.

So basically the only point for debate is whether to 3b the flop, yes? (If we do and he jams we call quickly.)

Thoughts on not doing so centred, I think, on a couple of things...

1. A flop 3b looks so strong I think he probably passes everything but 33. (Dave - agree re: your point that this means that we should be 3b'ing Xc ourselves.)
2. By flatting we leave him with the initiative oop on the turn, which puts him in a tricky spot on the majority of turn cards, no? Ie. In his position what should he be doing on the following turn cards?

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