Changes to DTD Cash games....

[jakally]

I was hoping to see a little tinkering to rake on split-pots in the DC game.

I know that I have hardly played at all lately but that would definitely encourage me to donate again.

Its very hard to come up with a solution for not raking split pots. If you dont do it, the game makes no money.

The only thing you could possibly do is no rake in pots with only 2 players, but thats so difficult to moderate

I am a customer, and probably shouldn't say this.......... but I don't see any sensible argument against raking split pots.

I am not suggesting not raking split pots in hi-lo games and never ever suggested that, tinkering was the word I used.

I do believe that in a hi-lo game where the pot is split the rake should be halved or you can often end up with situation where two players split the pot and both lose money which is not sensible in my book.

Similarly, I can't see a good argument why the rake should be halved for a split pot.
Basically, you are saying that, overall, rake should be reduced for split-pot games, but it is probable (I don't know for definite) that the DC games already generate less rake per hour, than NLHE games, as each pot takes longer to play out.

As for session charges, I don't like them as they encourage people to consider leaving the game every 30 minutes, which can lead to games breaking much sooner than they otherwise would.

Dc is larger stakes and generally wilder, esp as equities run so close pre, so more money despite the slower dealing.

2/2 plo at my local rakes well over double what the deepstack .5/1 hold'em does an hour, even though they get less hands.

Think it would be better to compare 2/2 PLO to 1/2 Holdem.

PLO Hi is the simplest and quickest of the DC games. Games like Superstud, Padooki, and Omaha Hi Lo take much longer per hand.

[CHIPPYMAN]

were talking to regular DC players and most of them agreed that it may kill the game.

most of the pots r £100 pre and will cost mosrtly £10 every hand.

will discuss it  with simon and nick when go down dtd.

still love dtd

[cambridgealex]

Does this mean no .50/1 on deepstack weekends as used to be the case?

Must admit, the .50/1 with the £200 cap was perfect for my bankroll, and although the capped £1/2 game isn't too bad (if any actually run, previously the capped 1/2 would never be offered, and capped 1/2 games would become uncapped due to player-pressure), it's not going to suit a lot of players.

I think those days are gone - there will always be 50/1 options, regardless of it being a festival weekend. Since there's always a £15 comp on, there always has to be cash games suitable for them to play. The club are trying to get the £15 comp players playing cash. And the 50/1 players playing 1/2 etc etc. That's the idea.

There will be NO UNCAPPED 1/2 GAMES. That's the whole point, the capped/uncapped didn't work cos of the player pressure you mention. This way, the 1/2 will be a stepping stone - all the 50/1 players that sat with £200, can play 1/2 now, and not be put off by people sat with 1k. The people that sit like to play big games, can play the 1/3 and sit with whatever they like.

I really hope all three games will run alongside one another every day.

The rake might be a problem as I think the bigger games will suffer, as many many pots will be over £200 thus being raked £10 - it does seem a lot. However I like the 5% bit!

I know Rob and the club's heart is very much in the right place with these changes - so if it doesn't work or causes unexpected problems / effects - they will change it around again. 

[rfgqqabc]

I was hoping to see a little tinkering to rake on split-pots in the DC game.

I know that I have hardly played at all lately but that would definitely encourage me to donate again.

Its very hard to come up with a solution for not raking split pots. If you dont do it, the game makes no money.

The only thing you could possibly do is no rake in pots with only 2 players, but thats so difficult to moderate

I am a customer, and probably shouldn't say this.......... but I don't see any sensible argument against raking split pots.

I am not suggesting not raking split pots in hi-lo games and never ever suggested that, tinkering was the word I used.

I do believe that in a hi-lo game where the pot is split the rake should be halved or you can often end up with situation where two players split the pot and both lose money which is not sensible in my book.

Similarly, I can't see a good argument why the rake should be halved for a split pot.
Basically, you are saying that, overall, rake should be reduced for split-pot games, but it is probable (I don't know for definite) that the DC games already generate less rake per hour, than NLHE games, as each pot takes longer to play out.

As for session charges, I don't like them as they encourage people to consider leaving the game every 30 minutes, which can lead to games breaking much sooner than they otherwise would.

Dc is larger stakes and generally wilder, esp as equities run so close pre, so more money despite the slower dealing.

2/2 plo at my local rakes well over double what the deepstack .5/1 hold'em does an hour, even though they get less hands.

Think it would be better to compare 2/2 PLO to 1/2 Holdem.

PLO Hi is the simplest and quickest of the DC games. Games like Superstud, Padooki, and Omaha Hi Lo take much longer per hand.

How do i take the quickest dc game dealt, then presume all  games are dealt at that speed. Wp me....

[SuuPRlim]

I think introducing 1/3 with unlimited buyin is a tremendous idea, the 1/2 games ere ridiculous before they were so deep and 2/5 was just a little TOO big to run consistently, so 1/3 is perfect. Great work.

I do think tho, that the min-buyin's are too high, 100bb minimum is not that good for the game imo as a lot of players (more affluent recreational players) are very happy to gamble around for a bunch of money, but just aren't comfortable playing with deeper, and would much rather bullet off 1500 at 2/5 pulling up 250 a time than playing 100big blinds.

If you reduced the min-buyin on the 1/3 and 2/5 and 5/10 to 50 big blinds I think you would have it almost spot on.

[jakally]

How do i take the quickest dc game dealt, then presume all  games are dealt at that speed. Wp me....

To be fair, it's not the speed of dealing...... It's the amount of time it takes the players to act, and then the post hand inquest which holds up the next hand.
I've played in DC games where you do well to get much more than 10 hands per hour.

[kinboshi]

Does this mean no .50/1 on deepstack weekends as used to be the case?

Must admit, the .50/1 with the £200 cap was perfect for my bankroll, and although the capped £1/2 game isn't too bad (if any actually run, previously the capped 1/2 would never be offered, and capped 1/2 games would become uncapped due to player-pressure), it's not going to suit a lot of players.

I think those days are gone - there will always be 50/1 options, regardless of it being a festival weekend. Since there's always a £15 comp on, there always has to be cash games suitable for them to play. The club are trying to get the £15 comp players playing cash. And the 50/1 players playing 1/2 etc etc. That's the idea.

There will be NO UNCAPPED 1/2 GAMES. That's the whole point, the capped/uncapped didn't work cos of the player pressure you mention. This way, the 1/2 will be a stepping stone - all the 50/1 players that sat with £200, can play 1/2 now, and not be put off by people sat with 1k. The people that sit like to play big games, can play the 1/3 and sit with whatever they like.

I really hope all three games will run alongside one another every day.

The rake might be a problem as I think the bigger games will suffer, as many many pots will be over £200 thus being raked £10 - it does seem a lot. However I like the 5% bit!

I know Rob and the club's heart is very much in the right place with these changes - so if it doesn't work or causes unexpected problems / effects - they will change it around again. 

Yeah, my bad - hadn't noticed that the uncapped 1/2 was now the 1/3 game. That makes more sense.

[robyong]

I'd like to make a few points regarding Cash Games and some other day to day stuff;

1. Unless you grow new cash game players, a poker room, live or online eventually dies, with the smallest game being a £40- £200 buy-in + straddle, our data shows that new cash game players have dried up dramatically despite footfall being 35% up year on year, the increase in buy-in from £100 to £200 has increased the rake per hour for the club, happy days on the surface but look beneath it and we have raked the lower bankroll player too much as the pots have been bigger and have been hitting the £7 cap way too often, hence the change back to a £50-£1 game with limits of £25-£100 and a reduced cap of £5, I feel this make basic sense as a starter to put in place

2. The £1-£2 game at our club that has been running most frequently is £1-£2 Uncapped + Straddle, its basically a £2-£5 game with an average sit down of £1k+, I think £1-£3 Uncapped is a decent idea of a compromise between the bankrolls and hopefully we will see more £1-£2 capped games at the club going forward as players will be less fearful of playing against heavy artilary, and hopefully when they are confident, can then take a shot at the £1-£3

3. The 5% £10 Cap is pretty standard in the industry for £1-£2 + NL games, some casinos will offer 5% with £5 cap, but have no liquidity from tournaments because they don't invest hundreds of thousands £'s every year in their comps, so can afford run at these levels, but these games just die in the end as the losing players go broke and there is no liquidity to replace them. We sometimes get flack for how much value we give to our tourney players, especially for the Final Table Challenge, well, without them, there isn't enough liquidity for cash games for NL cash games at any level, no venue is the country except possibly the Vic does as many cash games as DTD over a month, and this is driven by our value added/high GTE comps that provide the players to continually feed the cash games

4. Omaha and DC is a hard one, hands per hour are very irratic caused by post mortems, decisions, and the nature of more cards and draws to consider. Personally, I would rather charge these with session fees, but this itself causes problems with games breaking, players losing big pots and then being asked for £7 quid, sometimes these games can rake less than 10 hands per hour, however, if they are regular, they can be profitable in the long run and they are fun games. We get some flack because we tend to open the NL games first, which rake double the hands per hour, if we find the £10 + 5% is raking a lot more than the 10% £7 cap, we will reduce it, its that simple. Not raking split pots would make the game not worth having, some casinos will offer to do this for reasons above

5. IMO Rake is better than session fees because it taxes the winner of the pot, I prefer to play in a raked game than a session fee game, at £2-£5 / £5-£10 and above sitting deep in a live cash game - say average £2k - £3k sit down, the rake is really immaterial to the size/number of the pots being won and lost, I guess it's more relevant online as you can play mullti tables, heads-up, millions of hands, but live, in the bigger live cash games, whether its £5 or £10 rake makes little difference to your win when the average pot is £500-£1000, whether you win or lose than month is going to come down to a few big pots, not the rake, I guess you could say the same about tipping, that can add up aswell over 10 years of playing live bigger stakes games, especially if you have attractive waitresses serving you!

6. Live poker players are so clueless when it comes to poker revenues and how much money gets made from them, poker is a "promotion" to get bums on seats in a Casino, I went down to the Vic a few weeks ago and the players were moaning about paying for drinks because they were playing cash games, a recent policy change at the Vic, its nearly always the professional grinders that moan aswell, it makes me laugh, the venue are providing their "place of work" and all they can do is bitch and moan, in reality, the Vic will be not making a penny out of their poker room, it only exists because a few high rollers come for a game of poker and then go on tilt and drop money on the casino tables, I keep hearing players are threatening to go to the Palm Beach to play unless they get a free drink!

7. We ditched the Cash Game Bonus because it was diverting cash game funds into tournaments, we want to come up with something else to replace it, in hindsight, we should have done this BEFORE we canned it, we just looked at the numbers last month and it cost £11,000 and cash game hours were the lowest for 2 years, so we cancelled it, same with the Final Table Challenge, we were running the £5K GTE promotion and felt we can't run 2 tourney promotions at the same time, again, we need to come up with something to replace it, as I said, tourney players are important to the ecology of cash games. We have been so snowed under with the CPP, UKIPT and Deepstacks, we havnt come up with any new ideas for a Cash Game Bonus and Final Table Challenge, if anyone has any ideas, please could you post them here. I know the Vic and Gutshot are doing Cash Game Races where they take 50p or £1 out of a pot etc but I kind of cringe when I see money taken out of pots or prizepool for a promo, maybe I shouldnt, nobody moans when the WPT take $25k out of the prizepool and annouce that the winner gets a seat to the $25k WPT Final, when is reality, its just taken out of the prizepool!

As with everything, we will try and make improvements and changes when necessary, live or online, we don't take 1p out of the poker community , it all goes back into the mix, since we opened we are stuck ("invested") a further £1.5m back into the "business" in last 4 years to keep the DTD story going (not pleading poverty here but I think its a fair point to bring up when what we charge for our products is being discussed, as it's currently greater than what the service you are costs), we are in the business of giving value and getting loyalty, not trying to rip players off short term etc. We are so busy at the moment, it's hard to focus on day to day business, but we will have a good look at cash games and regular comps ASAP now we are open 7 days, I think we are doing a good job on weekends and big events and maybe taking our eye off the ball mon-thu and sun, which need some tweaking. Just seem to be busy all of the time, havn't even sorted CPP satelitte program out yet!

Any ideas welcome on here for new Cash Game Bonus OR Final Table Promotions for our locals , it would be nice to think of linking the Final Table Challenge to the CPP but that's £6k so maybe not possible, either way, we hope to come up with new promos for our regular players after the UKIPT.

Apologies for the lengthy post, just so fkn busy at moment, we try and do promos every few months as things get tired, so if someone can come up with one for our cash game players and evening tourney regs that doesnt bankcrupt the club, much appreciated.

Cheers Rob

[SuuPRlim]

Good post.^

I really like the way it works in Vegas where you pay per half hour and you can do those "time pots" where the winner of the first pot over $X pays the time for everyone.

especially if you have attractive waitresses serving you!

DTD well known for hiring non-attractive waitresses....

Oh no wait, they are all incred and it costs us all a fortune!

[Skippy]

I'm pretty certain the Vic makes >£0 from its poker room.

[tight4better]

Rob do you guys have any ideas at all for the cash bonus? Or just looking for inspiration?

If you have guidelines for us to stick too then I'm sure us blondes could come up with something

In the meantime, guess I'm stepping up to 1/2 capped

[aaron1867]

I definitely don't think unlimited buyin is any good, hate it myself.

When I do sit down at a cash table, I always sit with a buyin that is "in the middle" or perhaps analyse other stacks, etc.

[Bully87]

Glad to see 1 2 uncapped gone, exactly why i never took a shot at 1 2 cos of ridic stacks and the embarrassment of sittin with 100 to 200bbs. More game choice for me when i trek down again
Wp wp Rob

[smashedagain]

How do i take the quickest dc game dealt, then presume all  games are dealt at that speed. Wp me....

To be fair, it's not the speed of dealing...... It's the amount of time it takes the players to act, and then the post hand inquest which holds up the next hand.
I've played in DC games where you do well to get much more than 10 hands per hour.

This is the funniest part of the game. Someone (usually Wadey in DTD) saying " you are the fecking worst dealer ever. How the hell did I not get there when I've got this with this and this" while dramatically throwing his cards slam down face up onto the table. Then tells the other player usually Bash, Faisel or Frankie " you're the luckiest player I've ever met. If I had half your luck I'd be a millionaire "

[kinboshi]

How do i take the quickest dc game dealt, then presume all  games are dealt at that speed. Wp me....

To be fair, it's not the speed of dealing...... It's the amount of time it takes the players to act, and then the post hand inquest which holds up the next hand.
I've played in DC games where you do well to get much more than 10 hands per hour.

This is the funniest part of the game. Someone (usually Wadey in DTD) saying " you are the fecking worst dealer ever. How the hell did I not get there when I've got this with this and this" while dramatically throwing his cards slam down face up onto the table. Then tells the other player usually Bash, Faisel or Frankie " you're the luckiest player I've ever met. If I had half your luck I'd be a millionaire "

Rinse and repeat 10 times over the space of quite a few hours, and that's the DC game at DTD.  I'm sure the arguing is the reason they all play it.  Mustn't get enough grief at home from the missus.