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Author Topic: UKIPT Hand - It was great? It was butchered? It was no big deal?  (Read 3698 times)
Yian
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« on: April 14, 2012, 02:19:17 AM »

Hello,
I would like to get some feedback on the hand that sent me out the door of this UKIPT event.
This is isn't a backwards way of telling my beat story; some people may look at it and say it wasn't worth the post and tbh I walked away from the table thinking "yup, that's fine, we'll get 'em next time." I thought I played it fine and anything else would just be 'with hindsight', but then after talking to friends whose game's I respect and having been told that it was fine AND that I butchered it, I thought maybe it's worth a wider consensus.

It was the 4th level and the table draw is nothing to complain about. Everyone playing pretty cagey as they do early stages apart from two clear value spots, one who is calling too much and a LAGtard who is our villain for this hand. At this point he's already put in a blind raise from UTG, made a nervous young lad fold KK and shows him a bluff, opening too many pots and promised revenge when a bluff was shown to him. He's already been given a two hand penalty for folding out of turn and he is very loud and obnoxious. My image, if it even mattered to him, was pretty solid, haven't played many hands but won the ones that I did with only one showdown where I c-bet with nothing, paired the turn on A54 K and check called a bluff on turn and Ace river. (that was mr. calls too much)


Hero - 21k
Villon (that is greek for dick) - 20k

Blinds - 100/200

Villon raises 375 from hj (not even paying attention that min raise is 400) so raise to 400
Hero in BB has  and 3b to 1050
Villon 4b to 2750

...now I have a think and ponder the best way to get good value from such player and if I think he quite often doesn't have a hand and folds to a 5b, and also that a c-bet from him is imminent because he's the kind of player that has the tools but rather than hit the nail with the hammer he smacks himself in the face with it, so the plan was to check call or check raise most flops...because letting aggressive players hang themselves is a good thing right?

Hero flats 2750

Flop is 

Hero checks

Villon fires 3050

H c-raises to 7k

V almosts instantly goes all in

H calls.

V reveals   

Turn 

River 

Had I won this hand I probably wouldn't be asking which is the messed up thing. Early stages are a weakness for me so if I can take anything away from this that would be great.

Now is this ever a good example of taking someone to value town in such early stages?
Was this a way too risky way to play OOP?
Is this a must 5b?
Should the c-raise have just been all in?
Could I have folded when he went all in? (this comment I personally very much disagreed with) The argument being that any hand he does this with will have too much equity in the pot and in these early stages this was an unnecessary spot for me when I could have just carried on chipping away steadily.


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pleno1
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2012, 03:28:52 AM »

i think we can 3bet bigger initially as he just is NEVER going to fold and we want as much money in the pot for future streets. I like to click it back pre to continue to gain value vs a totally crushed range and to induce vs his definite potential spaz.

Make it 4475 and inform him that he will receive change from a mesely 5k chip.
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youthnkzR
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2012, 11:18:23 AM »

i think we can 3bet bigger initially as he just is NEVER going to fold and we want as much money in the pot for future streets. I like to click it back pre to continue to gain value vs a totally crushed range and to induce vs his definite potential spaz
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2012, 11:58:13 AM »

I honestly think everything is absolutely fine. agree you could 3b a bit bigger but I prefer flatting to 5betting given the situation
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silverslick
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2012, 12:37:46 PM »

3bet a bit more and also 5 bet him.  No need to slow play him. You got it in good and calling the all in was right thing to do.
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dakky
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2012, 10:04:50 PM »

1300 pre and i don't mind the peel here I do it myself sometimes-> I see this the same as AA as long as willing to commit to any flop
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 06:34:56 AM »

you got your entire stack in with 63% equity? thats a big edge. quit fretting, also next time just call him a fat welsh arsehole, he wont care Smiley

i dont like your flop line too much, but preflop is good/fine.
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TL900
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 04:36:13 PM »

I honestly think everything is absolutely fine. agree you could 3b a bit bigger but I prefer flatting to 5betting given the situation

not folding many boards post either.
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@MtSpewmore
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I wouldn't normally try so hard, but didn't have another opportunity I could wait for. I wasn't ready to surrender what I WANTED SO MUCH, that easily, I couldn't guarantee a call with me staying stoic and relying on a flinch "top pair" calling reflex.
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 06:37:15 PM »

Did you get 80 BB in on the flop with 1 pair no draw Huh?? Sounds spewy to me.
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Bubbba82
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 07:01:05 PM »

Based on villains spewtard reads Smiley wp pre. but chk call flop assess later streets as ur either gettin it in dead or marginaly head.

Henry griffiths has pylez
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Yian
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2012, 10:30:05 PM »

Appreciate the feedback and I've taken on board the 3bet sizing but other than that there is still some varying opinions. I get the fact that sometimes in poker there is no definite right or wrong answer but was hoping for more insight on general mindset. I want to make sure I'm thinking right, not just specifically for this hand but in other situations where I find myself with the option to get it in "with 63% equity" in early stages. I believe later stages I have to take those odds all day long. Is it the right attitude to be taking those odds for entire stack or put an end to the hand sooner and carry on chipping up steadily..
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rbc_mike
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2012, 03:31:17 PM »

Sounds fine tbh, do think we should be three betting bigger pre tho, gonna make it easier to get stacks in, make it like 1400 imo, if he really is a spewtard he won't care!

Flop line is ok if you think he's happily getting it in with aj/big spade. folding with 63% equity would be ridiculous. the frequency with which you flat the flop bet would have to depend on how often you think he's barrelling the turn with a big spade/on a bluff. a spade could be an action killer if he has a legit hand, so id rather maximise my equity on the flop, if he has jj then wp sir, nh.

so yeh, bigger pre, dont fold flop, I'd rather amass a big stack and try and crush rather than wimper down to 15bb. play ftw!
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kinboshi
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2012, 05:12:56 PM »

Did you get 80 BB in on the flop with 1 pair no draw Huh?? Sounds spewy to me.

Against a spewy player as a 63% favourite.  How is that spewy?
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2012, 07:46:44 AM »

Appreciate the feedback and I've taken on board the 3bet sizing but other than that there is still some varying opinions. I get the fact that sometimes in poker there is no definite right or wrong answer but was hoping for more insight on general mindset. I want to make sure I'm thinking right, not just specifically for this hand but in other situations where I find myself with the option to get it in "with 63% equity" in early stages. I believe later stages I have to take those odds all day long. Is it the right attitude to be taking those odds for entire stack or put an end to the hand sooner and carry on chipping up steadily..

people massively overestimate their edges in tournament poker. unless you have some monster stack in a terrible field (which is tough as hell to find) you should be super excited to find a spot like this.

slowly chipping up playing small-ball is fine, until an opportunity to get a full doubleup with 63% equity comes along......
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expat
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2012, 11:51:41 AM »

Hello,
I would like to get some feedback on the hand that sent me out the door of this UKIPT event.
This is isn't a backwards way of telling my beat story; some people may look at it and say it wasn't worth the post and tbh I walked away from the table thinking "yup, that's fine, we'll get 'em next time." I thought I played it fine and anything else would just be 'with hindsight', but then after talking to friends whose game's I respect and having been told that it was fine AND that I butchered it, I thought maybe it's worth a wider consensus.

It was the 4th level and the table draw is nothing to complain about. Everyone playing pretty cagey as they do early stages apart from two clear value spots, one who is calling too much and a LAGtard who is our villain for this hand. At this point he's already put in a blind raise from UTG, made a nervous young lad fold KK and shows him a bluff, opening too many pots and promised revenge when a bluff was shown to him. He's already been given a two hand penalty for folding out of turn and he is very loud and obnoxious. My image, if it even mattered to him, was pretty solid, haven't played many hands but won the ones that I did with only one showdown where I c-bet with nothing, paired the turn on A54 K and check called a bluff on turn and Ace river. (that was mr. calls too much)


Hero - 21k
Villon (that is greek for dick) - 20k

Blinds - 100/200

Villon raises 375 from hj (not even paying attention that min raise is 400) so raise to 400
Hero in BB has  and 3b to 1050
Villon 4b to 2750

...now I have a think and ponder the best way to get good value from such player and if I think he quite often doesn't have a hand and folds to a 5b, and also that a c-bet from him is imminent because he's the kind of player that has the tools but rather than hit the nail with the hammer he smacks himself in the face with it, so the plan was to check call or check raise most flops...because letting aggressive players hang themselves is a good thing right?

Hero flats 2750

Flop is 

Hero checks

Villon fires 3050

H c-raises to 7k

V almosts instantly goes all in

H calls.

V reveals   

Turn 

River 

Had I won this hand I probably wouldn't be asking which is the messed up thing. Early stages are a weakness for me so if I can take anything away from this that would be great.

Now is this ever a good example of taking someone to value town in such early stages?
Was this a way too risky way to play OOP?
Is this a must 5b?
Should the c-raise have just been all in?
Could I have folded when he went all in? (this comment I personally very much disagreed with) The argument being that any hand he does this with will have too much equity in the pot and in these early stages this was an unnecessary spot for me when I could have just carried on chipping away steadily.



I would 3b to 1250ish.  In this hand I would 5b to 9500ish.  With blinds of 100/200 it is far too early to be dropping out of the tournament.  You want to be putting yourself in spots where you are far more in control of where you are in the hand.
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