6 Max FML Moments - Being 3bet

[Bully87]

Hey all,

Find myself in spots like the below so often, just wondered how I could combat against them in any other way than being a nit and folding. My general rule of thumb is to fold all pairs below 99 and less than AJs to 3b. Is this OK?
What do we 4b especially OOP.

I know a lot of this is villain dependent but it's the regs who keep snap 3b me and I just cant put them on ranges worse than mine (espesh from SB) when opening ATo, A9s, mid PP's etc so I end up burning a lot of 3bb opens from EP and MP.

Any help or content would be appreciated??

N

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (IPoker)
$20.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, March 29, 10:30:44 ET 2012
Table Peoria (No DP 50 bb min) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $28.00 USD ) - VPIP: 24, PFR: 21, 3B: 11, AF: 7.0, Hands: 767
Seat 3: Player3 ( $20.00 USD ) - VPIP: 19, PFR: 15, 3B: 4, AF: 4.2, Hands: 470
Seat 5: Player5 ( $21.86 USD ) - VPIP: 23, PFR: 17, 3B: 6, AF: 2.8, Hands: 778
Seat 6: Player6 ( $49.26 USD ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 10, 3B: 5, AF: 2.4, Hands: 785
Seat 8: Hero ( $20.00 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 7, AF: 2.2, Hands: 42747
Seat 10: Player10 ( $20.61 USD ) - VPIP: 24, PFR: 21, 3B: 11, AF: 7.0, Hands: 767
Player5 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player6 posts big blind [$0.20 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [  ]
Hero raises [$0.60 USD]
Player10 folds
Player1 folds
Player3 folds
Player5 raises [$2.30 USD]
Player6 folds
Hero folds
Player5 wins $3.20 USD from main pot

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (IPoker)
$20.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 04, 08:47:10 ET 2012
Table Means (No DP Full Stack) (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $20.00 USD ) - VPIP: 19, PFR: 15, 3B: 7, AF: 1.8, Hands: 4140
Seat 3: Hero ( $25.85 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 7, AF: 2.2, Hands: 42747
Seat 5: Player5 ( $26.72 USD ) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 13, 3B: 6, AF: 1.6, Hands: 352
Seat 6: Player6 ( $27.79 USD ) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 15, 3B: 8, AF: 5.3, Hands: 29166
Seat 8: Player8 ( $25.01 USD ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 16, 3B: 8, AF: 2.0, Hands: 709
Seat 10: Player10 ( $20.70 USD ) - VPIP: 19, PFR: 15, 3B: 7, AF: 1.8, Hands: 4140
Player10 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player1 posts big blind [$0.20 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [  ]
Hero raises [$0.60 USD]
Player5 folds
Player6 raises [$2.00 USD]
Player8 folds
Player10 folds
Player1 folds
Hero folds
Player6 wins $2.90 USD from main pot

[Honeybadger]

These two hands are really not 'FML moments'. They are super comfortable folds. You've opened UTG ffs... 55 and KQo are pretty much the absolute bottom of your range. So if you are at all unhappy about folding these hands then you have a serious problem.

[Bully87]

These two hands are really not 'FML moments'. They are super comfortable folds. You've opened UTG ffs... 55 and KQo are pretty much the absolute bottom of your range. So if you are at all unhappy about folding these hands then you have a serious problem.

Perhaps I was in the heat of a losing session when posting, I agree it's making my life easy when they 3b me cos I can easily fold. I just wanted some input as to whether people play back, take some of these hands out their UTG and EP range?

[Honeybadger]

Perhaps I was in the heat of a losing session when posting, I agree it's making my life easy when they 3b me cos I can easily fold. I just wanted some input as to whether people play back, take some of these hands out their UTG and EP range?

Not entirely sure I understand your last question, it is worded strangely. Are you asking whether we should tighten up a little if opponents are playing back against you a lot? If so, then obviously the answer is yes... in response to an opponent who is 3betting you a lot you need to narrow your opening range but then defend this range more vigorously by 4betting with a wider frequency (which is easier to do is you have narrowed your opening range). Hands like KQo and 55 are the first hands to remove from your UTG range if you decide you want to narrow.

BTW don't stress about guys at 20NL owning your soul by 3betting too much. They aren't.

[Bully87]

Perhaps I was in the heat of a losing session when posting, I agree it's making my life easy when they 3b me cos I can easily fold. I just wanted some input as to whether people play back, take some of these hands out their UTG and EP range?

Not entirely sure I understand your last question, it is worded strangely. Are you asking whether we should tighten up a little if opponents are playing back against you a lot? If so, then obviously the answer is yes... in response to an opponent who is 3betting you a lot you need to narrow your opening range but then defend this range more vigorously by 4betting with a wider frequency (which is easier to do is you have narrowed your opening range). Hands like KQo and 55 are the first hands to remove from your UTG range if you decide you want to narrow.

BTW don't stress about guys at 20NL owning your soul by 3betting too much. They aren't.

Sorry, my writing skills are terrible at times.

I was asking if I should just take these hands out my range and thus having a tighter more straight forward to play range or is this too nitty and we should be 4betting back to combat it.
From what you've written a combination of both.

I'm not stressing, I've just moved from 10NL to 20NL and the players are a lot tighter and more aggro with 3b. So I'm in a stage of adjustment.
Thanks

[Honeybadger]

I was asking if I should just take these hands out my range and thus having a tighter more straight forward to play range or is this too nitty and we should be 4betting back to combat it.
From what you've written a combination of both.

I'm not stressing, I've just moved from 10NL to 20NL and the players are a lot tighter and more aggro with 3b. So I'm in a stage of adjustment.
Thanks

Well you certainly should not be 4bet bluffing with 55 or KQo after opening UTG and getting 3bet. Tbh I would recommend you never ever 4bet bluff at micro stakes.

As regards your opening ranges from utg, well it is up to you. Most likely you are not going to make a huge profit playing KQo or 55 from utg so if you want to drop these hands from your utg range then that is fine. Tbh I would always open them but that is because I would arrogantly consider my skill edge to be extremely high over the entire table if I was playing micro stakes.

[pleno1]

I was asking if I should just take these hands out my range and thus having a tighter more straight forward to play range or is this too nitty and we should be 4betting back to combat it.
From what you've written a combination of both.

I'm not stressing, I've just moved from 10NL to 20NL and the players are a lot tighter and more aggro with 3b. So I'm in a stage of adjustment.
Thanks

Well you certainly should not be 4bet bluffing with KQo after opening UTG and getting 3bet

I could certainly think of worse hands and not alot better Although ofc yeh just fold until we have a reason to do otherwise.

[muckthenuts]

Both are folds, and i think the 55 is an open fold pre?

[Honeybadger]

Well you certainly should not be 4bet bluffing with KQo after opening UTG and getting 3bet

I could certainly think of worse hands and not alot better Although ofc yeh just fold until we have a reason to do otherwise.

Yes you are right; KQ is a good candidate for 4bet bluffing. 55 is a terrible one. I wouldn't even worry about having to construct a 4bet bluffing range at microstakes though.

Both are folds, and i think the 55 is an open fold pre?

Both hands are borderline opens from UTG in a 6 max game. It doesn't really make a huge amount of difference whether you open them or fold them.

[rfgqqabc]

Well you certainly should not be 4bet bluffing with KQo after opening UTG and getting 3bet

I could certainly think of worse hands and not alot better Although ofc yeh just fold until we have a reason to do otherwise.

Yes you are right; KQ is a good candidate for 4bet bluffing. 55 is a terrible one. I wouldn't even worry about having to construct a 4bet bluffing range at microstakes though.

Both are folds, and i think the 55 is an open fold pre?

Both hands are borderline opens from UTG in a 6 max game. It doesn't really make a huge amount of difference whether you open them or fold them.

Surely if you can't profitably open 55/KQo utg at 50NL or down your on the wrong tables?

[Honeybadger]

Surely if you can't profitably open 55/KQo utg at 50NL or down your on the wrong tables?

Yes, I'd always open them up to 100NL. I might sometimes fold them at 200NL and above. But they are still borderline opens. If a player is not 100% comfortable playing these hands then he is not giving up very much at all by simply folding them UTG.

[dakky]

wow I couldn't imagine folding these utg at almost ANY table

[Honeybadger]

wow I couldn't imagine folding these utg at almost ANY table

Look at the HEM database of a good winning player at mid-stakes 6 max online. One with at least 500,000 hand sample. 55 from UTG will most likely be a break-even hand. It might be a tiny winner for that particular player or it might be a tiny loser, depending on exactly how he constructs the rest of his UTG range. But there won't be much in it at all.

[skolsuper]

wow I couldn't imagine folding these utg at almost ANY table

Look at the HEM database of a good winning player at mid-stakes 6 max online. One with at least 500,000 hand sample. 55 from UTG will most likely be a break-even hand. It might be a tiny winner for that particular player or it might be a tiny loser, depending on exactly how he constructs the rest of his UTG range. But there won't be much in it at all.

In a game where people adjust properly (i.e. 6m nlhe games nowadays, to a pretty fair extent), you will have losing hands in your UTG range, whatever it is. Even if you cut your range down to KK+, people adjusting properly would setmine vs you and only stack with AA and thus you would lose with KK (unless you readjusted to these adjustments and didn't stack off when you were behind, but then you would just win the blinds mostly with either hand and obviously it's a terrible strategy). Anyway the point remains that you will have losing hands in your range, it just depends what sort of hands you want them to be, and hands that hit low boards are good to have in your perceived range.

[Rupert]

Yeah whether the hand is +EV or not to open is beside the point if it makes other hands in your opening range more profitable.  People who are way too tight are the easiest to exploit as you just wait to make a big hand vs them then stack off.  Not opening KQo or 55 UTG is terrible.  55 is an easy fold, you can 4 bet bluff with KQ sometimes especially vs someone with a larger 3 bet %.