2/5nl spot at the vic.

[TheFallen]

Had some mixed opinions on the turn play so looking for some advice please.

Game is one if the best 2/5 games I've seen. Lots of calling and most people in the game don't seem overly concerned with the monetary value of pots.

Villain1 (seat has been sat for 3-4 rounds and bought in for £400-500.  He has run pretty good so far and played a lot if pots including limp calling with k7o etc so safe to say he has a wide starting hand range.
Villain2  (seat 1) thinks he's good and takes life way to seriously. He has a big ego.  He has yet to fold to any raise or 3bet pre and cold calls 3bets regularly, then stacking off when he hits any pair.

The game is 7 handed (seats 2 and 5 missing)

I straddle  to £10. Folds to villain 1 (playing £1400) on the button who attempts to raise but chucks in £15. This is take as a min raise to £20. villain 2 (playing £800) in the Bb calls. I cover both and find QQcd in the straddle and make it £100 to go. Villain 1 thinks for 10 seconds and calls, vill2 had already counted out his call befor I moved my 3 bet over the line and he insta calls.

Flop is 6s2s6d. Check, I bet £200 into £305 (hoping to valuetown pocket pairs befor scare cards come). Vill1 thinks for 20 seconds and calls. Vill2 sigh folds as usual.

Turn is . There is £700 in the pot. Effective stacks are £1100.

What's the best play? And if we bet what's the best sizing?

Cheers for any replies :-D

[DMorgan]

How likely are you to get blown off the best hand when you check? I think he'll very likely check back his 2x hands and most pairs looking to get to showdown. If he's going to play straightforward and he doesn't have any/too many floats in his range then I think its a pretty easy c/fold.

[Fenix35]

checking to fold to most bets seems like the best plan here

[rfgqqabc]

If tank call seems legit I'd tank, check my cards again and shove

Weighted against flush draws and towards 77 right?

[DMorgan]

Really interesting hand, I'm thinking though that if he had a lot of the hands that we get value from by betting here (almost exclusively 33-JJ) then he's gunna make it more than 15 pre when he thinks he's opening.

The other option would be to flat pre which 300bbs deep would be fine also IMO. If the game is really that amazing you can just keep pots really small pre and shovel it in when you have it. This is pretty much my strat going into most live cash games fwiw.

[stato_1]

Me and Mitch had a little discussion about this hand on the 4 hour journey to drop Peejay off in Mansfield.

I reckoned check fold but Mitch thinks we can check/call, check/fold river as a lot of live players are just gonna bet like 99 here without really thinking. He's probably right, guess it depends on bet size.

[cambridgealex]

Wow spooky, me fenix and thigh did exactly the same thing on the way back to notts.

And we all agreed that c/f to most bet sizes is best, perhaps check calling if we get a read that he's clicking buttons with 77 or if his betsize gives something away.

Most live players don't make big bluffs in big pots, nor do they turn hands into bluffs as often as they probably should so readless, I think we can comfortably check fold.

[cambridgealex]

Completely disagree with Dan that we could flat pre - I think that's an absolute disaster vs the describe villains - I'd be fistpump 3betting 99 here.

[DMorgan]

I'm not saying that I wouldn't 3bet in game - I pretty much always would but 99 I'm certainly not fistpump 3betting and really don't think its optimal in a really soft, stationy lineup like this one when we're playing 300bb effective stacks.

[stato_1]

Yeah i dont like 3betting 99 here, QQ different gravy tho obv.

[SuuPRlim]

defo 3bet for me although flatting seems fine but it's hard to really value-own people post when we dont 3bet imo

Tun spot is so player specific it's really hard to say, no1 thought much about just betting again? Defo people I would have an easy c/f vs here  from the sound of this villain I quite like betting £385~

[FrenchieBeni]

W/o too much info on villains turn tendancies i bet 391 and fold to a shove.
if the villain is as loose as you described and lilbit splashy i think check jamming mite be nice. (we need villain to have hands ala KsQ, AsQ, AsJ + 99/TT/JJ and to bet them).

dont see the advantages of c/f'ing vs a loose player + live play.

[dakky]

W/o too much info on villains turn tendancies i bet 391 and fold to a shove.
if the villain is as loose as you described and lilbit splashy i think check jamming mite be nice. (we need villain to have hands ala KsQ, AsQ, AsJ + 99/TT/JJ and to bet them).

dont see the advantages of c/f'ing vs a loose player + live play.

Agree mos of this

also we are 140bb effective with the straddle on not 300

[pleno1]

I think turn is a really good b/f sometimes b/calling depending on timing tells or live read. For example of he snap jams id fold quickly and if he really did take 4 minutes and say ok I'm all in and look happy when you don't snap and isn't putting a show on.

We lose out on so much value by not betting here, when we take bet check bet route vs good players we are almost never getting called and vs fish there are so many bad rivers vs their perceived range so betting turn here with the intention of folding around 92% of the time is going to be the best play imo. I can't remember pot to stack ATM if it's like 1.3x then I probably bet 0.35x, although this may sound contradictory after saying the above I think if we get to the then hu vs a lot of players I would jam. Vs good players for balance and vs bad players because their pot is gonna get quite hard with stacks and potential board run outs . 

Regarding 3b range pre I think 10s is generally going to be a little thin and would suggest jj+ aq+ @alex I think you got this bit a little bit confused.. You correctly said its a good spot but instead of widenig our value range we should actually just increase our bluffing range because with  pairs it's really hard to b/c on many flops unless we flop a set so your suggested 99 actuall plays a lot  moresimilar to 22. Squeezing hands that we can bet / bet (jam) with fold equity combined with
Pot equity when called and behind are a lot more valuable, again vs good players this is still true as the borderline 3b for value hands get a lot more difficult to play when deeper and we can't just flick it in and try to run like goulder, so constructing our range like this is fine vs almost all players.

Brag: new phone doesn't have Spanish auto correct

[skolsuper]

I like mitch's line of c/call once, most people will feel obliged to bet mid pairs here for protection or take a stab with their floats if they have a spade, and I doubt they'll have the wherewithal to turn the mid pairs into a bluff on the river. C/jam turn  for protection/value is therefore also a possibility, depends on stacks as to whether the risk/reward ratio adds up for us tho.

Failing that, bet fold seems the obvious default line, defs fold to any raise as our range is still obviously uncapped and fish these days just aren't trying to make people fold AA any more. Bet/call and c/fold are tied for nut worst lines IMO, although obviously c/fold is much lower variance.

Finally, don't straddle in the vic unless absolutely everyone else is doing it.