HU Hand

[SuuPRlim]

Here is an interesting one for you all

HU in the $3k vs Brynn Kenney

Eff stacks ~14k

blinds 100/200

He raises btn to 500 I call in the BB with 

Flop (1,000) 

I check, he checks.

Turn (1,000) 

I check, he checks.

River (1,000) 

I bet 500, he raises to 2,400.

no history at all.

[outragous76]

how thin has he v bet 1 pair type hands?

and is this level 1?

[pleno1]

interesting hand.

i dont think we are good here, but he has 0 full house combos and almost 0 flush combos as I'd expect him to bet flop. I guess we should shove and he should had a non existent calling range. We can legit rep full houses and flushes. I'm not sure if 7750 is better than jamming or not.

[Patonius2000]

I wanna put more than 1900 in the pot here.

[T_Mar]

Prob a thread for sickos so should prob keep out, but my 2pence worth is I cant see what hands he raises for value that beat us that he wouldn't bet on earlier streets other than Ax but there are 3 of those out, it looks like a hand with showdown value that he turned into a bluff, or thinks he can get thin value from?! call river for me

[Honeybadger]

IMO Raising > Calling >= Folding

Obviously the aim in raising is NOT to get called by worse, it is to fold out his entire range including the parts of this range that beat us. We can credibly rep all full houses, and also flushes. It would make sense for us to have played a flopped set this way, because the turn card was an Ace so it is highly reasonable for us to have checked the turn after whiffing the flop c/r. No idea who this player is, but you have given his name so I assume he is some sort of well-known dude, and hence a presumed 'thinking player'. So he should be able to work out he is beaten even when he has a weirdly played trip Aces or a weirdly played flush.

[SuuPRlim]

Pleno and P2k responses are interesting.

When he raised my initial reaction was that he has a flush a HIGH% of the time, but I agree he literally CANNOT have a full house, it's as unlikely as anything is ever in poker.

Problem is with jamming imo, he obv knows that his range cannot include boats, so theoretically he shouldn't EVER raise/fold a flush although he would havee to give me credit for knowing this which IDK if he would as we have literally played less than 15 hands at this point. I'm assuming ofc, that we're jamming as a bluff, no-one thinks we should jam for value?

What do we think of a chk/raise OTR btw? it flashed through me head in game...can you see him betting anything worse than he'd call with OTR?

how thin has he v bet 1 pair type hands?

and is this level 1?

yes level 1. Only hand that might be relevant is a couple earlier. I open and he peels the BB, we check through a flop, he leads 700 into 1k on a turn then bets 2.2k into 2.4k on a river. I make it 5.8k and he tanks for a while and folds. I think he had a decent Jack here so there is a piece of bet-sizing info, this is early on though so expect him to be switching it up a ton.

Fwiw though I can't see any 1pair (would be 2p here) hand he can have - he can't really have a JACK, or a 7, or KK/QQ/TT and I can't see him bluffing with the worst 1(2pair) hands he has because he cannot rep any boats.

Prob a thread for sickos so should prob keep out, but my 2pence worth is I cant see what hands he raises for value that beat us that he wouldn't bet on earlier streets other than Ax but there are 3 of those out, it looks like a hand with showdown value that he turned into a bluff, or thinks he can get thin value from?! call river for me

Don't worry about thread for sicko's What you're saying is kinda true, what value hands can he have? He can't have a boat, or a Jack+, wont value raise worse and we'd think he'd bet a FD some good% of the time and an ACE OTT almost always. But the other side to the coin is, what the hell has he gotten here with he decides he wants to bluff with. Lets suppose he has no hand at all, the best and most traditional place to bluff is on the flop, he has the betting lead and the board isn't too connected. He might opt for a delayed C-bet, in which case he hits a gin turn card to delay bluff on - as he has more Ax's than me, and a lot of legitimate hands for hi to check back OTF would be stuff like A9 etc so he could very credibly rep an ACE on the turn.

On the river however he can credibly rep really very little, so for a player of his caliber to decide now is the spot to bluff after refusing two excellent opportunities to stab at the pot previously seems VERY strange to me. With no fell for my game (I might be very tight, very loose, a massive station etc) I always feel like when stuff doesn't make sense there is usually a value bet somewhere behind it. For this reason I think calling is the worst of the three options I have.

[SuuPRlim]

IMO Raising > Calling >= Folding

you think calling is better than folding?

[Honeybadger]

IMO Raising > Calling >= Folding

you think calling is better than folding?

Approximately equivalent, hence the >= thing. Tbh though, when I first typed my reply out I had it as Raising > Folding > Calling. But then I changed my mind because I am a horrible station and a sucker for a price. I could very easily be re-convinced that folding > calling. But I am pretty certain that raising is a LOT better than either option.

Who is this guy BTW? It would suck if he was some old-school live pro who thinks it is good play to trap check strong hands to the river in the Chan styleeee, and then snaps you with 7s full or something.

[T_Mar]

Prob a thread for sickos so should prob keep out, but my 2pence worth is I cant see what hands he raises for value that beat us that he wouldn't bet on earlier streets other than Ax but there are 3 of those out, it looks like a hand with showdown value that he turned into a bluff, or thinks he can get thin value from?! call river for me

Don't worry about thread for sicko's What you're saying is kinda true, what value hands can he have? He can't have a boat, or a Jack+, wont value raise worse and we'd think he'd bet a FD some good% of the time and an ACE OTT almost always. But the other side to the coin is, what the hell has he gotten here with he decides he wants to bluff with. Lets suppose he has no hand at all, the best and most traditional place to bluff is on the flop, he has the betting lead and the board isn't too connected. He might opt for a delayed C-bet, in which case he hits a gin turn card to delay bluff on - as he has more Ax's than me, and a lot of legitimate hands for hi to check back OTF would be stuff like A9 etc so he could very credibly rep an ACE on the turn.

On the river however he can credibly rep really very little, so for a player of his caliber to decide now is the spot to bluff after refusing two excellent opportunities to stab at the pot previously seems VERY strange to me. With no fell for my game (I might be very tight, very loose, a massive station etc) I always feel like when stuff doesn't make sense there is usually a value bet somewhere behind it. For this reason I think calling is the worst of the three options I have.
[/quote]



would he do this with something like 99-TT that he a) might get you to lay down Jx or even Ax or b) Level you into calling with 7x or 88 something like that, or is that really crazy

[Honeybadger]

On the river however he can credibly rep really very little, so for a player of his caliber to decide now is the spot to bluff after refusing two excellent opportunities to stab at the pot previously seems VERY strange to me ...... I always feel like when stuff doesn't make sense there is usually a value bet somewhere behind it.

I usually see this completely the other way round... if it makes no sense I always suspect a bluff.

[SuuPRlim]

Approximately equivalent, hence the >= thing. Tbh though, when I first typed my reply out I had it as Raising > Folding > Calling. But then I changed my mind because I am a horrible station and a sucker for a price. I could very easily be re-convinced that folding > calling. But I am pretty certain that raising is a LOT better than either option.

Who is this guy BTW? It would suck if he was some old-school live pro who thinks it is good play to trap check strong hands to the river in the Chan styleeee, and then snaps you with full or something.

ohh that's what >= means lol. Never was good with maths, I still get confused with which way round the < > < > thingys go

Brynn Kenny = won a lot of money at a lot of different types of poker. Id be very surprised if he isn't extremely extremely good. Defo not the type of player you described I think it's safe to assume he has a boat here once in 2,500 times (if that )

Yh well, If I could think of any thing he value raises that's worse, or is bluffing with id happily have calling > folding (that's the right way yh?) but as I can't for me I think folding > calling....

[SuuPRlim]

On the river however he can credibly rep really very little, so for a player of his caliber to decide now is the spot to bluff after refusing two excellent opportunities to stab at the pot previously seems VERY strange to me ...... I always feel like when stuff doesn't make sense there is usually a value bet somewhere behind it.

I usually see this completely the other way round... if it makes no sense I always suspect a bluff.

mmmm yh, in a lot of spots I guess you're prolly correct, thing is with good players who are well aware when they are making no sense whatsoever it just always seems like they wouldn't risk taking completely bizarre bluff-lines into reasonably uncapped (albeit quite wide for value) ranges without a good hand. Could well be wrong though everyone is up to mischief all the time in these silly tournaments.

[pleno1]

hes never ever raising Jx on the river as a bluff, nor 9's or 10's.

[Honeybadger]

On the river however he can credibly rep really very little, so for a player of his caliber to decide now is the spot to bluff after refusing two excellent opportunities to stab at the pot previously seems VERY strange to me ...... I always feel like when stuff doesn't make sense there is usually a value bet somewhere behind it.

I usually see this completely the other way round... if it makes no sense I always suspect a bluff.

mmmm yh, in a lot of spots I guess you're prolly correct, thing is with good players who are well aware when they are making no sense whatsoever it just always seems like they wouldn't risk taking completely bizarre bluff-lines into reasonably uncapped (albeit quite wide for value) ranges without a good hand. Could well be wrong though everyone is up to mischief all the time in these silly tournaments.

I have no idea who is right or wrong here. All I know is that a lot of 'good' players seem to believe they can get away with trying to run over their opponents in spots where they rep very thin value ranges. It's like they have such little respect for their opponents that they think they don't need to rep anything, they just expect their opponent to fold anything but a really strong hand. And they often get away with this against weak opponents who only consider the strength of their own hand. Presumably he would not do this if he knew his opponent was a strong thinking player... but he's probably heard of you and so knows you're just a weak-tight scared money type lol