Chess: Tal Memorial 2012

[The Baron]

If anyone is interested on a game on "chess with friends" on the iphone please PM me your username. I'm no pro, but half decent I guess. More an intrigued student than good player tbh.

[AndrewT]

Chess had its moment in the sun when Nigel Short played Garry Kasparov back about 20 years ago. Games were shown live on Channel 4, presented by Carol Vorderman, expert comments from The Penguin (Raymond Keene). Things ran aground once games reached the 'new move' stage and players spent ages thinking. If you've waited 5 minutes for a player dwelling up on a poker decision it was nothing on these guys. Once it became apparant Short was getting dicked on interest soon waned.

A chess game with, say, an hour clock on each side would work really well as a live TV event. It would cost little to stage and would surely be attractive to advertisers lookiing to target clever people with money.

[Tal]

Blimey! You leave a thread alone for five minutes..!

I shall do my best to answer the questions posed...

There is definitely a close link between chess and poker. The fact that they are both strategy games is too obvious; they both promote calculated aggression and an understanding of what the other chap is up to. In fact, quite a few of the grandmasters in the UK (and abroad) are competent poker players.

Hikaru Nakamura, the American number 1, actually plays poker at a pretty decent level, I understand (allegedly falling out with his then trainer last year - a Mr G Kasparov - because he backed out of a study camp with him to play poker in Vegas!).

The chess on TV thing has struggled because it's so difficult for people - even the best grandmasters - to commentate live. You have someone who has a mind-boggling ability to calculate very complicated variations, who is zoned in on a position. It is nigh-on impossible for someone else to be sure what they are thinking about, let alone commentate and do the calculations necessary. Golf for example is easy to commentate on because even the dullardiest of dullards understands ball in hole is good; ball near hole is quite good; ball in wet stuff is bad.

If you delay a broadcast by an hour or so, there is a market for it, and the Youtube generation is able to see grandmasters around the world analyse new variations and new games.

[Tal]

What is your one chess background? How long, what, where, why?

As for me, I have played chess since I was 10 (18 years). I happened to be on holiday in Tunisia and - as is customary being British - I found the other British children. Two of them were playing chess. I spent the holiday watching them (as I had never seen the game before) and, when, by the end of the holiday Dad saw that I was beating them both, he decided to find a local club.

Nine months later, I was at the England Under 11 trials and played at a decent level throughout my junior years. I was equal second in the British Under 15s and have a few trophies from various competitions over the years. Chess took a back seat when I was concentrating more on my studies, although I did carry on playing for club and county. I was able to captain the (victorious) Varsity team in 2005 - interestingly, Luke McShane was top board for the opposition that day.

Since then, I have carried on playing in the Birmingham and District League and for Warwickshire. I'm a stronger player now than I was as a junior but my progression has flattened a bit. It's hard to commit to playing such long hours around the country in weekend tournaments, where the return on investment is so much worse than poker. Nevertheless, I don't see myself stopping playing; I enjoy the game far too much for that.

[Tal]

Knew I recognised the name when I saw you post on PHA. Unfortunately I've been out of chess so long I have nothing I could contribute to this thread. Would hate to see it die a death though. What was the most interesting move in Round 2 IYO?

skolsuper I am sorry for not answering your question.

http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8228 should give you the games from round 2. The featured game was what was described as a "model game" by the commentators because Kramnik's play in it demonstrated just about perfect decision-making. Judgment is very, very difficult in the most complicated positions. It is one of the few things I would say accounts for some of the luck in chess. You get to a position where you aren't sure whether a particular move or a particular plan works. You have to decide whether to go with it and risk losing or to play something more sound and risk missing out on an opportunity to win. The greatest players are able to minimise the guesswork (because they can see further than us mere mortals and also because they have a greater understanding of the game), but even they get into positions where they have to rely on their instinct.

This game saw Kramnik play an unusual move at move 17. Now, if the link has worked, you should be able to play through to the position when white played 17.b5! The exclamation mark is a way for chess players to alert other chess players to a move being a particularly good one.

It doesn’t look like much, but the idea of it was to release his dark-squared bishop on a particular diagonal (from a3 – that’s two in front of the rook in the bottom left – to f8 – where the black rook on the right then sat). This effectively cuts the black position in two.

Active bishops are very important in games where the pawns aren’t all tied up, because they can cover a lot of squares and can be a pain to anyone trying to make progress.

In this position, after 17.b5! Black could decide to stop that bishop from getting much joy out of that diagonal and play 17…c5 in response (moving the pawn that the move 17.b5! attacked up one). This would block the position, so it seems like a good idea.

But, that would then leave a big hole on d5, which is the white square surrounded by black pawns in the middle. That would become weak and the pawn on d6 would be a constant thorn in Black’s side. At the top level, that would be too much to bear.

So, Kramnik got his way, because the alternative was worse. This was a brilliant idea, so it gets my vote for Move of the Day.

[Tal]

I think after doing the work that black was about a 12/1 chance at that level in a match between two players of equal ability, does that sound about right at the top level?

What an interesting question!

There are a number of reasons why you don't see many Black wins at the top level. The most obvious is that White starts off with an advantage (he has the first move), so has an edge to start off with. Black's role in the early part of the game is to equalise (in other words, the fact that White got to move first no longer matters).

Quite often, players look to play solidly as Black and more assertively with White (just as football teams look to attack at home and counter-attack away). Sometimes, Black is happy with a draw – “park the bus” – and live to fight another day, so they might miss out on the opportunity to win a game, which could skew the stats a bit.

The third thing is that, at the top level, there are so many draws. Big money tournaments these days have rules to prevent the elite just agreeing quick draws and collecting a cheque, but it is nothing like as bad as it was in the fifties and sixties, where the Soviet players would draw with each other and then try to beat whoever else was in the tournament!

12-1 sounds a bit long to me, although I can’t back it up with much by way of stats. Last year’s Tal Memorial had 45 games and 9 of them were Black wins, but that’s a pretty tiny sample size to base an answer on.

The top players are so good, if there is one mistake by White, Black will pounce on it and there will be no way back. In that respect, it doesn’t matter which colour you are playing.

[tikay]

Morning Tal, loving this!

Enjoyed very much your reply to skolsuper, "active Knights", "cutting the black position in two" etc.

I used to play the game, but only as a total & hopeless beginner.

I still read (but barely understand) Ray Keene's Chess articles & analysis in "The Times" every day (he has been their Chess Corry for as long as I can remember), & oddly, his piece today commemorates "the brilliant tactician Mikhail Tal as the Tal Memorial in Moscow gets underway". It discusses & analysys a game between Tal & Michael Stean. 

Can you tell us more about this, which you wrote, please?......

"....It's hard to commit to playing such long hours around the country in weekend tournaments, where the return on investment is so much worse than poker....."

Chess Tourneys? How many, how often, how many turn up, is there an entry fee, what sort of prizes are on offer? Do they have a Database of players & results, (as in poker),  are there many/any pros? Are the players generally civil to each other, or do you get some of the bitchiness we see in poker now & then?

Is Chess played a lot more online these days, & if so, has it blunted the players social & interpersonal skills?

Sorry for all the questions, but I think you'll find a lot of blondes might just be very interested in all this.

[Tal]

Morning Tal, loving this!

Enjoyed very much your reply to skolsuper, "active Knights", "cutting the black position in two" etc.

I used to play the game, but only as a total & hopeless beginner.

I still read (but barely understand) Ray Keene's Chess articles & analysis in "The Times" every day (he has been their Chess Corry for as long as I can remember), & oddly, his piece today commemorates "the brilliant tactician Mikhail Tal as the Tal Memorial in Moscow gets underway". It discusses & analysys a game between Tal & Michael Stean. 

Can you tell us more about this, which you wrote, please?......

"....It's hard to commit to playing such long hours around the country in weekend tournaments, where the return on investment is so much worse than poker....."

Chess Tourneys? How many, how often, how many turn up, is there an entry fee, what sort of prizes are on offer? Do they have a Database of players & results, (as in poker),  are there many/any pros? Are the players generally civil to each other, or do you get some of the bitchiness we see in poker now & then?

Is Chess played a lot more online these days, & if so, has it blunted the players social & interpersonal skills?

Sorry for all the questions, but I think you'll find a lot of blondes might just be very interested in all this.

There are chess tournaments somewhere in the UK most weekends. They come generally in two forms: standard play (long play) are two or three days in length. You play either five or six games, which will last up to 4 hours each. Everyone will play every round. If you win your first game, you play someone who won their first game and so on.

These cost around £30 to enter but a lot of it is swallowed up by admin expenses and the prizes are generally set in advance. There will be different sections - separate tournaments - you can enter so that you are playing people of roughly your own level. Otherwise recreational players would stop going rather than donating money to the top players!

A good tournament would get 200 players or more, with there being sixty plus in most sections.

[Tal]

The prizes in those comps will be something in the region of £300 for first, £200 for second and £100 for third. Prizes higher in higher sections.

The other type of tournament is rapid play. These are one day comps, with six one-hour games with the same ability-related sections. £15-£20 entry and maybe £150-200 first prize.

Most players have either a national or international rating and that sets which section you are allowed to enter, although you can enter a harder one if you want.

The choice is whether you spend £30 on poker or chess. One gets you £1000 for an evening's work; the other £300 if you do very well for a weekend's work (knock off travel and accommodation)

[Tractor]

Interesting stuff Tal, a lot of people only think about poker for tournaments etc(esp as we are poker players), I know quite a few friends who play in Bridge & Backgammon tournaments on a regular basis and there is some big money in those comps.

[Tal]

As for pros, in the UK, you could count them on one hand. It is very hard to make hood money just playing chess, even if you are a grandmaster. The top 100 in the world will be mostly pros, with the odd Luke McShane here and there. The very top - so called Super GMs - will be sponsored. At that level, the prize money can reach seven figures.

There isn't a hendonmob database for chess players as such, but the English chess federation does publish results every six months now on an individual basis as part of the new grades (ratings)
it issues. This is as much so you can see how the rating has been calculated as anything else.

The rest of the Grandmasters and international masters in this country will have 9-5 jobs or have coaching schools - generally for junior players. There is also the odd journalist, like Ray Keane.

Hope that answers most of your questions, tikay.

[Honeybadger]

Is Chess played a lot more online these days, & if so, has it blunted the players social & interpersonal skills?

From what I remember of my time playing club and tournament chess, many chess players are not exactly blessed with high levels of social and interpersonal skills

[Tal]

Is Chess played a lot more online these days, & if so, has it blunted the players social & interpersonal skills?

From what I remember of my time playing club and tournament chess, many chess players are not exactly blessed with high levels of social and interpersonal skills

Not sure how to take that!

I don't think it has changed all that much. People still play in clubs and in tournaments. There are some pretty good chess internet sites: playchess is where a number of the top players go and the software is very good. There is a basic package for free and further content (coaching, commentary on big games) for a fee. The free internet chess server is a more basic but perfectly adequate alternative. Plenty of people online on both so you wouldn't be waiting for a game long.

Not many money games online. Computers are too easily misused, let alone a million chess books on every imaginable opening, theory and analysis.

[Tal]

Not many iPod+beats+hoodie+aviators+scarf ensembles in chess.

[Honeybadger]

Is Chess played a lot more online these days, & if so, has it blunted the players social & interpersonal skills?

From what I remember of my time playing club and tournament chess, many chess players are not exactly blessed with high levels of social and interpersonal skills

Not sure how to take that!

Lol wasn't meant especially seriously. Most chess players are cool. I do remember having to socialise with some very weird, socially inept people though. Guys with full on raging egos and their entire feelings of self-worth wrapped up in how good they are at chess. Bit like poker in many ways lol! It used to become really evident during the post-mortems at the end of games when so often I had opponents trying to establish their superiority by showing fancy lines and quoting the latest fashionable opening variations. Again... bit like poker

I used to love the game though, although I seemed to hit a wall beyond which I could never advance. I was BCF 148 at my peak, which for those of you who don't know means I was a semi-decent club level player, but nothing special at all. Considering how much work I used to put into chess when I was young I should really have been much better than this and I used to find it frustrating that I couldn't seem to improve further.