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Author Topic: Alien spot vs maniac villain (200nl)  (Read 3751 times)
cambridgealex
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« on: June 17, 2012, 01:08:44 AM »

We're 3handed, 200nl euros.

History: Villain and I have been battling all day 2-5handed across several tables, he is extremely aggressive playing 43/34/28. He 3b/5bs 100bbs with all pocket pairs, AT+ sometimes worse (a few orbits before this he 3b/5b J9o and lost to my AK).

At the start of the day, I adjusted to his high 3b % by 4betting wider for value and more often as a bluff. He was himself 4betting so much that I started 3b/5b small pairs, but he adjusted by 4b/calling AJ, 77 etc so at this point I've readjusted by 4b/calling wide and never 5b bluffing. I think he'd cottoned on to the fact that I wasn't 4bet folding anymore so perhaps this explains why he peeled in this hand.

Preflop: Hero is BB with  
SCHLOMOGADEA raises to €6.00, WSOP2013 raises to €18.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to €40.00, 1 fold, WSOP2013 calls €22.00
 
Flop: (€87.00)   three clubs   (3 players) Hero bets €44.00, WSOP2013 calls €44.00
 
Turn: (€175.00)      (3 players) Hero checks, WSOP2013 bets €194.65 and is all-in, Hero?

In this hand I decide to 4b/call 88 vs him and was really surprised to see him peel, he had jammed every time I'd 4bet up until now (about 10 times total) so I don't really know what to put him on. I can't put him on 99-JJ and when he just flats the flop, I can't put him on a flush. Anyone come up with a range?

How do we play the turn optimally?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 02:33:26 AM by cambridgealex » Logged

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stato_1
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2012, 01:23:17 AM »

Would probably jam turn. No idea why though, seems terrible lol
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pleno1
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2012, 01:31:38 AM »

I'd just fold pre. If I was going to 4bet I would 4bet bigger to induce jams, if he thinks ur not 4b folding much hel probably start peeling j9s etc and putting you in coffins post flop whilst when he does get it in pre you're probably dead / flipping. It's very very unlikely he gets 77 in here so 4betting 88 has to be quite bad I think.

How many hands do you have on him? A lot of people think they are in battles that they aren't and really they are just levelling and battling vs theirselves. Whilst its probably not right here it's something for others to think about. If a guy 4ber you 5 times in 500 hands but your HUD says he's 4bettibg 50% then it's very likely that you are just reading into a small sample size.

As played I'd just fold the turn, va his calling range were drawing really thin and we can't expect him to fold much better. is about the nut worst turn card. As played fold now,
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
cambridgealex
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2012, 01:49:36 AM »

Have 550 hands on him, his 4b range is 15%, 3b/5b allin with 22, 33 and 77 before vs me, as well as AQ and AJ and AK and J9o. So we've got it in pre together about 8 times in those 550 hands.

I'm sure he's still getting it in with any pair and AJ+ so I think the 88 is a profitable 4b call.
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Young_gun
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2012, 01:53:38 AM »

Sorry to derail thread, but can i just ask how you have stats? do you type them/record in or is it just a guess?

I would sigh fold turn myself here but dont really play cash and defo not at this level when i do
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pleno1
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2012, 01:58:08 AM »

I really doubt sonebody will 3bet utg and then 5b over a cold 4bet with 22-77 even really aggressive opponents would be more likely to not go so bananas here. Just because he's 3b5b vs you in certain spot doesn't mean he's going I explode and wager his mortgage here.

I know it's really annoying when you know something and how game dynamics are and sonebody comes and tells you that you're wrong so if you just KNOW then sorry etc

If you do want to induce and think he has 22-77 then I think 52-56 is best pre.

You can just do a quick Pokerstove on his range pre to see of you think it's profitable I guess and just give him half the combos of the small Laura or something.

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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
cambridgealex
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2012, 02:07:39 AM »

Sorry to derail thread, but can i just ask how you have stats? do you type them/record in or is it just a guess?

I would sigh fold turn myself here but dont really play cash and defo not at this level when i do

Holdem manager mate
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Young_gun
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 02:09:40 AM »

LOL cheers Alex my bad, i assumed was live

Think i need to sleep Smiley
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2012, 02:20:43 AM »

I really doubt sonebody will 3bet utg and then 5b over a cold 4bet with 22-77 even really aggressive opponents would be more likely to not go so bananas here. Just because he's 3b5b vs you in certain spot doesn't mean he's going I explode and wager his mortgage here.

I know it's really annoying when you know something and how game dynamics are and sonebody comes and tells you that you're wrong so if you just KNOW then sorry etc

If you do want to induce and think he has 22-77 then I think 52-56 is best pre.

You can just do a quick Pokerstove on his range pre to see of you think it's profitable I guess and just give him half the combos of the small Laura or something.



We're 3handed remember pads, so utg=btn Cheesy

Appreciate what your saying though
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2012, 02:33:17 AM »

He's allin on the turn btw
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 02:41:48 PM »

Have 550 hands on him, his 4b range is 15%

As a preliminary aside, 4bet range takes several thousand hands to converge. I'd ignore this stat as you have only 550 hands on villain.

Villain sounds like he is pretty competent preflop, able to adjust to your play and also to your adjustments. Perhaps a bit spewy, but there are worse faults to have in aggressive short-handed online games. Plus there is a fine line between spew and well-planned aggression. If you want to battle this reg I would advise you to seek your edges postflop rather than preflop. Start flatting him a lot more in position rather than 3betting him. Don't let him play the 3bet-4bet-5bet game with you; force him to play postflop.

So construct a much tighter and highly polarised 3bet range preflop, rather than the depolarised extended value range that you have right now. You will get short-term fringe benefits from this sudden and significant preflop gear change, because villain will assume you are constructing your 3betting range much differently, and will thus make mistakes against you until he re-adjusts. But the main purpose is not to temporarily trick him, it is to force postflop play on your opponent because he has proved himself competent preflop.

This is an alternative way to combat a highly aggressive opponent than to continually extend and re-extend your preflop value ranges to the point where eventually you are both fist-pump getting it in pre with A4o or whatever. That way lies thin edges at best. And likely madness too.

None of the above is relevant to the hand in question of course so a few quick words on that. First, 4bet/calling 88 here can never be terrible, given the reads and dynamics that you have given. The key here is that villain will be jamming all his small pairs (according to your read), and if this was not the case then 4bet/calling 88 is much less appealing. Like Pleno said though, I would consider 4betting to a larger size to prevent villain having the option of flatting IP. Since you have decided not to have a 4bet/fold range (and villain may have picked up on this) there is nothing wrong with making a larger 4bet, even though this appears donkish at first glance. Remember, the point of the very small 4bet is to be able to have a 4bet/folding range. Do keep in mind however that there is a huge difference in perceived ranges between a 'normal' 4bet and a cold 4bet, and this might effect his 5betting range substantially... but I am not going to argue with your in-game feel/instinct of how you feel he is likely to respond.

Postflop... it's a really uncomfortable spot because we have no idea of his range for getting to the turn. I actually like jamming the turn, since we have equity against most of his calling range and might fold out hands that have equity against us (even occasionally including some that currently beat us). It is sort of a semi-bluff, and sort of a merge. Which is fine given the bloated pot and the woolly nature of the ranges. The small SPR covers a multitude of sins, and the maths rewards aggression and is quite forgiving provided you have some fold equity combined with some equity when called. 88 is pretty much the top of your range for check-folding the turn, so it makes at least some sense to turn it into a bluff - especially as it has equity and some blocker effect. Obviously this is potentially highly spewy, but you've sort of set up that dynamic haven't you?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 04:13:09 PM by Honeybadger » Logged
rfgqqabc
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 05:48:00 PM »

Check/shove flop? Gets a bet from his air and best way to get chips in, plus he is nearly committed with overs etc
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 05:55:55 PM »

Thanks guys, any ideas on what he can have when he shoves the turn?
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rfgqqabc
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 06:05:00 PM »

Thanks guys, any ideas on what he can have when he shoves the turn?
Assortment of Broadways with a club, queen 9 maybe, some ten x stuff. I guess he would jam everything he has here, apart from flushes. He would prob shove draws on the flop, so I'm guessing, although never analysed a hand like this
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2012, 06:05:20 PM »

Have 550 hands on him, his 4b range is 15%

As a preliminary aside, 4bet range takes several thousand hands to converge. I'd ignore this stat as you have only 550 hands on villain.

Villain sounds like he is pretty competent preflop, able to adjust to your play and also to your adjustments. Perhaps a bit spewy, but there are worse faults to have in aggressive short-handed online games. Plus there is a fine line between spew and well-planned aggression. If you want to battle this reg I would advise you to seek your edges postflop rather than preflop. Start flatting him a lot more in position rather than 3betting him. Don't let him play the 3bet-4bet-5bet game with you; force him to play postflop.

So construct a much tighter and highly polarised 3bet range preflop, rather than the depolarised extended value range that you have right now. You will get short-term fringe benefits from this sudden and significant preflop gear change, because villain will assume you are constructing your 3betting range much differently, and will thus make mistakes against you until he re-adjusts. But the main purpose is not to temporarily trick him, it is to force postflop play on your opponent because he has proved himself competent preflop.

This is an alternative way to combat a highly aggressive opponent than to continually extend and re-extend your preflop value ranges to the point where eventually you are both fist-pump getting it in pre with A4o or whatever. That way lies thin edges at best. And likely madness too.

very nice points thumbs up

I have a friend who plays HS nlhe and was telling me recently he's been experimenting me a 0% 3b+ strategy, it's by no means optimal but his reasons for doing it are that in his words "everyone's a sicko preflop these days, so I'm trying to get to the turn"
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