Support from the rail - When is it cheating? more integrity needed in the game

[Malc-M]

The DTD Chipleader tournament was a great event.

Off course the question remains whether the result  was a legitimate win or one aided by a clear case of cheating.

We all appreciate support from the rail but the incident when one of the railers indicated Greek Jack’s hand to one of the players he was supporting in the hand is nothing less than cheating.

Many people saw this incident and saw that the call only came after clear collusion between the player and the railer.

We can argue that Jack should not have allowed anyone on the rail to see his hand but that does not excuse what occurred after.

The evidence was really clear and I hope for the integrity of the game that DTD investigate and take appropriate action.

[jezza777]

I am not sure its cheating? its out of order and shady for sure but it is a players responsibility to protect his hand. I have no idea what went on at this Ft just my opinion.

[Laxie]

Would be difficult for anyone who wasn't there to be judge and jury on this one.  I heard they were looking into it at the time, but there was no mention of the findings later.  Have you asked them?

[corkeye]

I am not sure its cheating? its out of order and shady for sure but it is a players responsibility to protect his hand. I have no idea what went on at this Ft just my opinion.

The 'alleged' incident involved the rail signalling to a player at the table. If it is found to be true, that absolutely IS cheating.

[Marty719]

tbf, I dnt think he flatted the 3b pre with JJ and a psb left to fold, esp on the driest flop possible...

[TightEnd]

Malc

I took the liberty of making Simon Trumper aware of the thread

He tells me he has already spoken to Jack, and has told him he is looking into the matter fully and will speak to him again once he has done that

[bobby1]

The tricky thing here imo is this, did the guys mates stand where they did because Jack was flashing his cards and they thought they might gain an advantage, or were they just standing there and happened to see his cards on this occasion.

If its the later then the guy that was in the hand cannot really do anything if his mate makes a sign to tell him what he has seen (other than sigh pass on the grounds that he was mid deliberation and his mate had now passed the info on). If its the former then it's a pretty clear example of cheating but if it was that clear cut then surely the TD would have acted then to disqualify the player and remove his mates from the card room.

It seems strange to let the comp finish and then decide if anything untoward took place.

[TightEnd]

As Caroline reported on the night, The TD was present throughout and spoke to the railers at the time, and presumably made the decision that the tournament carries on as is. This implies there was no clear evidence of wrongdoing, does it not?

Obviously speaking to all parties afterwards is sensible on Simon's part, as Live Club director, too

[bobby1]

As Caroline reported on the night, The TD was present throughout and spoke to the railers at the time, and presumably made the decision that the tournament carries on as is. This implies there was no clear evidence of wrongdoing, does it not?

Obviously speaking to all parties afterwards is sensible on Simon's part, as Live Club director, too

Yes, if the TD investigated at the time and decided to carry on then it cannot have been cheating, or it was a bad decision made. If Simon finds there is a case of cheating what can be done about it now tho?

OP says it was 'nothing less than cheating' which would indicate there could be some doubt about the decision, Malc certainly isn't someone that would throw those kind of claims about willy nilly tho we have to be careful not to just take sides because Jack is a nice guy with lots of friends and the other guy isn't as well known. As I said above, he cannot be at fault if his mate has acted badly, he has hardly played the hand like he is going to pass on that board too so its not like he made a hero call with 2ndpbk after the sign.

[doubleup]

I'm not in the least bit surprised that this happened.  I have seen plenty of final tables where spectators could see players cards and I have never seen a TD warn players about it or throw out "curious" spectators.

[smashedagain]

Tighty was Simon the TD at the time or one of the other lads?

Mark who made the call ain't ever folding his hand in that position. He is a decent player and I would be pretty confident that it was never his intention to cheat. I personally think his tank call was out of embarrassment and guilt at the actions of his pissed up mates because on the evidence available they were cheating and signalling to Mark.

Franky had warned Jack about people seeing his cards and still jack was not protecting them properly. Jack is an awesome guy and love to see him win but what can be done after the event that could not have been done at the time. Simon (if TD at the time) should have dealt with it there and then because I can't see them getting the £32k from Mark.

Should have read Bobbys post before posting.

[CHIPPYMAN]

Malc

I took the liberty of making Simon Trumper aware of the thread

He tells me he has already spoken to Jack, and has told him he is looking into the matter fully and will speak to him again once he has done that

b4 i left i did tell jack to b careful when looking at his cards ( before the incident happened ) because i can c his cards while standing behind him.

after that i left  and when i reached home . i saw on the update about the incident.  pretty bad actually because it sound like CHEATING 2 me but
 
in other way it the responsibility of the player to protect their own hand. i did found something suspicious before hand but i was tired and went home.

i hope DTD will look at the camera and sought the matter fair & square.

[smashedagain]

Malc

I took the liberty of making Simon Trumper aware of the thread

He tells me he has already spoken to Jack, and has told him he is looking into the matter fully and will speak to him again once he has done that

b4 i left i did tell jack to b careful when looking at his cards ( before the incident happened ) because i can c his cards while standing behind him.

after that i left  and when i reached home . i saw on the update about the incident.  pretty bad actually because it sound like CHEATING 2 me but
 
in other way it the responsibility of the player to protect their own hand. i did found something suspicious before hand but i was tired and went home.

i hope DTD will look at the camera and sought the matter fair & square.

But what can be done after Franky? I don't even know what could be done at the time. Could the hand have been declared dead?

[jgcblack]

I am sorry if this is not a popular view on blonde, but imo

"it is a players responsibility to make sure his or her cards are not viewable by any other player and or spectator, IF they are viewable... the hand should be dead, and any and ALL chips put into the pot (including an all in) are forfeit".


End of discussion, there is no cheating question, no signalling question, none.


jb

[jgcblack]

As the much loved and highly favored Liv Boree said

"when did poker become a gentlemans game? a friendly game? F**k that! its a game of war and in war people die, get over it and enjoy it for what it is!" (might be slightly para-phrased)


Anyone moaning about the 'morality' or 'gamesmanship'.... needs to go find a fair and nice game to play with the something 'safe and fun' that is supposed to teach children to play nicely....  its the same misguided logic that holds true in the 'lets play this hand nicely shall we?'  Errr no, gtfo pls..