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Author Topic: Ruling.  (Read 2752 times)
celtic
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« on: June 30, 2012, 11:51:35 PM »

£100 f/o at Luton last night.

1500/3000/400.

Utg limps, utg+1 shoves 48k, folds to bb, who has 40k approx. Announces raise and throws in a 5k chip. Utg folds.

bb has not seen the all in and mucks. His hand is killed, or at least has touched the muck.

What happens now?
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2012, 12:30:25 AM »

He doubles the guy up.
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George2Loose
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2012, 02:31:47 AM »

He doubles the guy up.
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luther101
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2012, 02:40:22 AM »

Mmmmmm - we all what should happen Vin (BB's hand is dead, & his silicones go to Mr Utg+1)      .....     

Strangely a similar scenario happened to me in a hand a month, or so, ago - I raised all in, called in one spot, turn my PP over, oppo looks down for his (unprotected) cards, rookie dealer has mucked them      .....     at (you guessed it) the Luton G.

Ruling called for    ....       we both agreed we 'knew' what the outcome was to be - and put it down to his 'bad luck'.

Not on your Luton G phuqqin Nelly my son!

I sat gobsmacked as talk of 're-constructing the hand' slowly melded into a decision that my oppo got his chips back (he outchipped me, but not even the 'call' amount was taken from his stack)     ......   and I ended up with the SB/BB/antes only.

Now everyone down to Pina the Cleaner knew what the ruling should have been - but I ended up getting the worst ruling in my 'poker life'!

I take it - from the post in Chompy's thread Das has got similarly 'floored'?

Tbh nothing surprises me anymore @ Luton       ......       

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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2012, 03:35:24 AM »

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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 04:02:29 AM »

Alex is right as per

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dik9
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2012, 11:29:20 AM »

Common sense is required in this spot IMO, if it were down to the facts given then I would force the bb to sacrifice his 5k or if his cards are identifiable give him the option to call. He has said raise into a pot where he can't technically raise. It is again technically down to the player to protect his interest in the pot. But no one can act after him and therefore they are not angeling. It's a mistake ffs that can be rectified. Rule 1 here.
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dik9
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2012, 11:33:18 AM »

 9hEww just woke up and seen that utg folds pmsl what the fuck was the dealer doing lol
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 11:35:45 AM by dik9 » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2012, 11:39:21 AM »

utg limps and then utg+1 shoves for 48k but the bb doesn't notice so tries to raise? What should happen here is bb should be picked up and slung out into the carpark. I would actually prefer a trap door under each seat so when this shit happens the offending player just snap disappears from view, but as it stands just wrestling him out the door and telling him to piss off seems reasonable.
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 11:40:19 AM »

If his cards are identifiable then give them and his 5k back and give him the option to call.
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TightEnd
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2012, 11:42:50 AM »

If his cards are identifiable then give them and his 5k back and give him the option to call.

Surely not?

His cards have hit the muck. There was UTG in the hand after him so we can't say if bb is just daft or angle-shooting

His hand is dead, UTG has folded (doh!) and UTG+1 doubles up
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dik9
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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2012, 11:45:09 AM »

Common sense is required in this spot IMO, if it were down to the facts given then I would force the bb to sacrifice his 5k or if his cards are identifiable give him the option to call. He has said raise into a pot where he can't technically raise. It is again technically down to the player to protect his interest in the pot. But no one can act after him and therefore they are not angeling. It's a mistake ffs that can be rectified. Rule 1 here.

I didn't see originally that UTG was in.

In which case all his chips are in, but if his cards can be identified they should be turned and live, if they cannot be identified then pot goes UTG+1's way.

There is a misconception that if a players cards "touch" the muck then come hell and high water they cannot EVER be live. If it is clear what cards they are, then in the spirit of the game if they are 100% identifiable they should be retrieved and play in this case.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 11:49:23 AM by dik9 » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2012, 11:59:33 AM »

Firstly, as long as his cards are identifiable then if we are gonna make him go all in then his cards are live. It doesn't matter if they've touched the muck or not. The muck isn't some magical entity that kills anything that touches it.

Secondly, we need to exercise some discretion as TD. Is it a genuine mistake? If so then just point out the previous action and let him consider his options.

Forcing a call/raise does nothing for the integrity of the game if it was in error. The player who shoved all in might not even want calling.

And utg does muddy it a little, but it doesn't make much of a difference here to me.
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2012, 12:00:57 PM »

cards were in the middle of the muck, no way of knowing which cards they were
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2012, 12:03:14 PM »

cards were in the middle of the muck, no way of knowing which cards they were

Dead then, but OP said "touched the muck"
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