Poker Bay - My Business Plan. Market Research.

[smashedagain]

persoanlly, i think i can normally sell out on a value figure that I believe is good for both me and investors. I.e Barca at 1.25 which sold out very quickly meaning I could have sold out a little higher maybe, even perhaps at an auction price, but if I sold again tomorrow, I'd definitely sell at 1.25.

Also if I am ocnfident selling out elsewhere then paying 1-4% in the long run will hurt.

But you can't be anywhere value at 1.25 going on your record can you Patrick? The shrewd reg investors know this (Dubai/bobby/SG) but you could sell out at 1.5 because you are a popular guy not because you are a good investment. You probably get an extra .1 just for your tourney reports

[scotty77]

the main issue that I see being is user base.  I think you have over-estimated the market massively, and a lot of people who sell action will already have many regular buyers, who won't want to ditch these buyers in favour of an auction format for many many reasons.

blonde is fairly unique in terms of UK Poker forums where the staking board is active and I think that this has clouded your judgement as to whether there is a need for this kind of service.  the reason why the blonde staking board is such a (relative) success is due to loyalty and friendships that have formed via this site and at DTD and other live venues.  I can't see many people turning their back on blonde for the sake of trying to get an extra point here and there by using your site.

and if you look at something like the hendon mob forum, attached to probably the most successful UK poker site, where they don't have a staking board and just the odd thread here or there on their General Poker Chat, that should tell you loads about the potential market.

while poker is fairly popular now, most casual/recreational players just prefer making informal arrangements with friends and dealing with cash rather than dealing with strangers and having to arrange transfers.

[cambridgealex]

Good points scotty

[smashedagain]

•   Money back guarantee – if the player goes AWOL and doesn’t play / doesn’t return any winnings, you get your money back. One strike policy for such scammers.

•   There's still no guarantee that players won't bink and run. No way around that, there's always going to be a risk of that when staking. The one thing Poker Bay does offer is a money back guarantee for players who haven't qualified for pre tournament payment.

Are you just paying the stake back or covering the lost winnings?

If it's the latter are you insuring yourself against it?

Just paying the stake back, but that whole idea is up for change.

My thoughts were the main target Market don't need the money up front, they sell to reduce variance rather than literally needing the cash. So they might not mind that system.

For those that need the money, I was thinking about getting them to send their share to me, then i buy them in over the phone or whatever to the comp concerned. That's not in the plan right now, but it's an idea.

If your main target market is those type of players they already sell on poker forums and to mates who also play poker. They don't get anything out of paying for the service do they

[scotty77]

What we offer sellers
•   A huge market of buyers meaning you’re almost certain to sell out on any package

How will you gain this 'huge' market.  I think that poker is such a tough tough market to crack in terms of getting people involved.  Most people in poker just like to play, end of.  And when they do need to get staking, then they are just gonna ask around mates live or on skype/facebook.

While the audience isn't the same, I do realise how hard it is to get people engaged in poker. The viewing figures for Sky Poker TV are pretty massive for such a niche channel, and before I was involved there I would have guessed at something like 1/10th of the actual viewing figures.  Now the people who actually engage with the channel and send in comments/hands/tweets is just tiny.  Miniscule.  And we spend a lot of air time asking for them.

Like I said before, a successful forum like blonde has clouded your judgement on how viable this business will be....I understand how easy it is to get carried away tho and think that poker is more popular than it is....when you see DTD packed out for stuff like UKIPTs etc but the reailty is that the majority are just punters who wanna have fun and couldn't care less about an auction staking site...

[cambridgealex]

They do, read the "why use poker bay" post.

[scotty77]

However it is an interesting idea and something that if it was launched I would certainly sign up and make use of the service, both as a buyer and a seller, which I would imagine most of your friends in poker would do too.

But these group of friends wouldn't be able to make it a viable business.  And I struggle to see how people outside of blonde would make use of it.

[smashedagain]

Ask everyone in the grand prix if the wanna play the £500 deepstack next month. There is your market right there. Works on the same principle as the old kirby vacuum cleaner sales pitches back in the day. Get family and friends to buy em up.

[scotty77]

Ask everyone in the grand prix if the wanna play the £500 deepstack next month. There is your market right there. Works on the same principle as the old kirby vacuum cleaner sales pitches back in the day. Get family and friends to buy em up.

why would friends and family bid on a site and pay commission to buy a piece?

what I think is likely to happen is that you will get a flood of posts on the new site ASKING for staking.  stuff like...

yeah im a sick player man but I just don't have the roll to play 500s.  I don't like online but live I have an insane hedge.  Here's my hendon mob with a min cash in the GP in 2011 where I lost a massive flip and I woulda won if I'd have just binked an A lol.

where are the buyers gonna come from?  IMO the buyers will only come from here and nowhere else.

[GreekStein]

I don't think it's a good idea personally Al.

People like Brammer / Marc / Dubai etc who occasionally sell big packages aren't going to want to pay these fees when they can just sell their action through blonde/facebook and not pay those rates.

[MPOWER]

Wow

First thought is I cannot see it working ..But good luck Alex

Are there enough players/events out there to get staked in the UK?

If you go abroad. Will a man living in Germany/Finland etc risk his money on a site like this with no regulation.

Will Visa/Mastercard or anyone process payments.

Your selling a service not a item. What are the VAT implications?

Some young dude 21yr old has a good DTD 6 month run and sells 80% of himself in WPT @ Bellagio. Wins $2.75M and you never see him again.
Is there anything the law could do about it overseas. As if they would give a shit. I Suppose they would if they can nab 30%

I think to get the ball rolling I'd ask Bobby1 for advice. This man is the oracle of remote gaming.

Could you offer it to some established gaming site and pinch a % to run it. ? DTD has the resources.

I think the set up costs alone would be huge IT , Marketing , Even low rent poker mags, a page will be £1k

To sum up. I'm out. And at best I think this is a pitch to some company which already has the infrastructure to even have a decent crack.

But keep that brain turning over with ideas.

Good Luck in Columbia. Bink it and enjoy.

Regards

M
      
  

[SuuPRlim]

I still like the idea.

I think a host of the negative feelings towards the auctions are mostly that they are not so much "in the spirit" of Blonde Poker, being a community over a market place, in your site, it would be a market place more than a community, which would lend itself nicely to the concept.

I don't agree with Cos that Brammer etc wouldn't use his auction metod on a huge package. Use the $60k WSOP package for example that was like a $50k package at 1.2 - if he got charged 1.5% ($750) but with his auction system was able to achieve 1.3, not 1.2 (a pretty realistic increase) AND have someone control all the collecting of money etc over the buys so no tilt with people having tiny %'s etc then he's decreased his exposure by $5,000, which is well worth $750 for imo and when you factor the small amount of protection your offering I think it'd be well worth it.

I think it's going to take a while to get up and running, your problems initially are going to be a condensed and under-liquid buyer-base, if you can expand over to international markets as well you'd be onto a winner for SURE

Is there any way of getting a system with all the forums that have staking forums so that whenever anyone starts an auction it snap starts a thread on them that links them to you site?

[MPOWER]

Just a thought about numbers

blonde has just over 20000 Members. I think out of the 20k folk of blonde. It would be surprising
to me if the number of unique people staking or being rolled is over 0.75%-1% Max of membership.

I just can't see the opportunity to make money.   

Regards

M

[Doobs]

I think to succeed you need to find a new source of cash.  A significant proportion of the bigger stakers here have been fairly vocal in their dislike of auctions.  Without buyers it fails.

I do think the current golden period on blonde is blinding you a bit.  And there isn't really a problem, people can and so sell here, so you aren't really doing anything new, just making it a bit easier.

It appears quite a few people who are fans of the auctions are connected to you in some way.  I think in business you don't just have to be clean, you need to appear to be clean.

What happens if the auction ends at 0.8?

Don't like the idea of you effectively acting as guarantor, given how little control you have of the stakees.  I expect your site will be a magnet for every scamming scrote in the UK.  Especially those black marked by 2 plus 2 and chipmeup.

I am not sure you will get away with poker bay.  It is too close to ebay and is an auction site.  Not sure if there is much of an advantage in using that name, and there could be a very big disadvantage.  Finding yourself on the end of a legal action is time consuming, draining and expensive.  Even when you win, you lose.  Trust me on this.  

But mainly I think the costs of something like this will be large, the market will be small and the commission will have to be small.  Just can't see it working.  Sorry.

Good luck

[Woodsey]

Poker players are really nitty on the whole especially when it comes to EV, I think a lot just won't like the idea of having to pay fees when they can easily sell on here and other forums.

Also if it does become a success, what's stopping someone doing a much better version of it and nicking your business?

There was a staking site a couple of years back which sold shares of people willing to sell, can't remember the name maybe poker chip or something like that?. Its wasn't an auction, just a site where you could buy shares of players at whatever mark up they wanted, but it isn't that different from what your proposing. They seemed to have disappeared now and they had the marketing backing of one of the big sites like poker news if think, if they can't make a go of it I worry for you.