another spot from 200 deepstack

[JasiuZ]

300/600 75

I am SB (about 30k) with  folds to me and i raised to 1200 (tried a little more but did sting bet) BB(about 30k) after long thinking did call.

Flop  and I bet 1500. BB insta insta insta raise to 4k. Call.

Turn   x/c 10k

River    

 pot (about 31k) me and bb both about (15k)

hero?

[Honeybadger]

Check-raise all-in on the turn. It is only another 15k into a pot which is now 31k.

The only reason to check-call the turn (and then check to him on the river) is if you believe that you will get enough value from his bluffs to compensate for the chance of letting him check-back a Ten (or a pocket pair) on the river. This seems highly unlikely; once you check-call the turn he is very unlikely to bluff the river if he is in any way sane. So your primary aim is to maximise against his full houses, and prevent them checking back the river and getting to showdown without losing any more money.

He is never ever folding a Ten if you jam on the turn. It will only be another 15k to him, and he has a full house. Noone ever folds full houses. But he might check back scared on the river if you allow him to do so. So don't.

Don't worry about him having a Queen. Good luck to him if he does. If you did hope to do some amazing soul read and make a ninja fold based on a live tell that he has quads... well, the river is not the time to do it - you should make your hero fold on the turn, before you have put half the effective stack into the pot. But forget about that; folding would be ridiculous unless either a) you are some sort of poker god who can see into peoples' souls, or b) he shows you his cards and he has a Queen. In case b) I still might not believe him even when he shows me.

So don't concern yourself with the rare times when he has a Queen (you are going broke anyway so don't sweat it), and concentrate instead on maximising against the rest of his range. And this means check-raising the turn.

[DMorgan]

First of all, jam turn.

Need more reads really for the river decision. Hinges on a) whether or not he'll bet again with a ten and b) if he can have some spazzy bluff and jam river with it.


Actually on second thought I don't think he'll be able to resist betting a ten so we can just c/c river. He'll be at least somewhat afraid of a queen so he'll probably bet smallish with a ten but I don't think we can raise river because we can have the Q so even a complete drooler is going to find a fold here with Tx imo.

[mondatoo]

Joke tired so reserve right to change mind

But...

Why not c/c turn jam all rivers >>>>>>>>>>>> c/r turn ?

Obv both plays look strong.

Also pots 31k on river, no way villain is going to b/f river, in general live players don't normally bet small right, so even if he bets like 9k, he's not going to find a fold with 6k more getting million/1 when he has a 10, definitely going to just sigh call it off.

[Honeybadger]

Why not c/c turn jam all rivers >>>>>>>>>>>> c/r turn ?

This is a line fish sometimes take with their nutted hands: c/c flop (I realise you bet/called the flop), c/c turn, donk jam river. It is obviously an extremely out-of-tempo line, and is usually an illogical - and bad - line to take. There is no real need to have this line in your playbook, apart from in very specific circumstances. Obviously the board changing might be one of those circumstances (it's not going to change much here though is it?). Another reason would be because you strongly suspect that villain will be confused and will spazz vs such a weird line. But you can't just guess this... you need a real reason to do something so out of tempo and weird. Otherwise it is just FPS and is just as likely to work against you as for you.

If we are c/c turn it is specifically because we think villain has a lot of spazzy bluffs in his range and we are trying to maximise against those by inducing him to bluff off his chips, at the risk of letting him sometimes get to showdown cheaply with his value hands. So check-calling turn then donking river is completely illogical since it does not accomplish this plan at all. All you are doing is giving villain an extra street to work out that he needs to fold his Tx or 88 or whatever. Normally it won't matter of course, but every now and then an A, K or J comes on the river and villain has a moment of clarity and discipline and does a sigh-fold.

Also pots 31k on river, no way villain is going to b/f river, in general live players don't normally bet small right, so even if he bets like 9k, he's not going to find a fold with 6k more getting million/1 when he has a 10, definitely going to just sigh call it off.

This I agree with. I think Dan might have just overlooked the small size of the remaining effective stacks.

[DMorgan]

I don't think that its implausible that villain has alcoholics refer to as 'a moment of clarity' and folds river.

Although yeah I agree its more likely that he announces that if you've got a queen you've got a queen, calls, sees AA and is like wtffffffffffffffff

[mondatoo]

Why not c/c turn jam all rivers >>>>>>>>>>>> c/r turn ?

This is a line fish sometimes take with their nutted hands: c/c flop (I realise you bet/called the flop), c/c turn, donk jam river. It is obviously an extremely out-of-tempo line, and is usually an illogical - and bad - line to take. There is no real need to have this line in your playbook, apart from in very specific circumstances. Obviously the board changing might be one of those circumstances (it's not going to change much here though is it?). Another reason would be because you strongly suspect that villain will be confused and will spazz vs such a weird line. But you can't just guess this... you need a real reason to do something so out of tempo and weird. Otherwise it is just FPS and is just as likely to work against you as for you.

If we are c/c turn it is specifically because we think villain has a lot of spazzy bluffs in his range and we are trying to maximise against those by inducing him to bluff off his chips, at the risk of letting him sometimes get to showdown cheaply with his value hands. So check-calling turn then donking river is completely illogical since it does not accomplish this plan at all. All you are doing is giving villain an extra street to work out that he needs to fold his Tx or 88 or whatever. Normally it won't matter of course, but every now and then an A, K or J comes on the river and villain has a moment of clarity and discipline and does a sigh-fold.

Also pots 31k on river, no way villain is going to b/f river, in general live players don't normally bet small right, so even if he bets like 9k, he's not going to find a fold with 6k more getting million/1 when he has a 10, definitely going to just sigh call it off.

This I agree with. I think Dan might have just overlooked the small size of the remaining effective stacks.

I think this is one of those specific circumstances, he's much more likely to hero fold a ten if we c/r turn than if we c/c donk jam river, if we take the latter line a lot of the time he's just going to have a WTF moment and call it off with a ten. A general live player normally sees a c/r as really strong and he would never expect us to be bluffing on this board.

[pleno1]

he never folds a ten ott, hes alot more likely to fold on river for simple fact that scare cards can come.