Thoughts on riv.

[tight4better]

50/1 at gala. Image is usual TAG. Usual suspects. I'm playing £400 covering Sean, believe he has £230 or so to start the hand

Villain is Sean Belton (zerofive), not played a ton of pots with him during this session but we've played a lot vs each other.

Sean opens to £3, 4 finger Jimmy calls.

I'm OTB with  . To all Fold-pre'ers, even though my hand is garbage this is still a good spot and suited I don't think it's close, Jimmy never has a decent hand here, I've hardly 3bet and this is my first vs Sean this session, I've got a nitty image and usually expect Sean to fold, Jimmy to stubbornly peel and c/f 95% of flops.

I make it £14, folds to Sean who calls, Jimmy folds.

Flop (£33.50) 

Suddenly have to start value betting, Sean checks and I make it £21, he flicks it in.

Turn (£75.50) 

Hate this card, almost every hand has picked up equity and I could be drawing pretty thin, although my read on Sean is he would lead this card with a made flush, started narrowing him down to a lot of Kx which either has me destroyed or is AK/KQ which I obviously beat. Also had AJ in his range. This card also looks like I'm giving up with a failed c-bet attempt, Sean knows my game and knows I do a lot of bet-check-bet or bet-c-c. I'm also checking to keep the pot smallish in case I catch a diamond and can value bet and not fear a humongous c/r

River (£75.50) 

Brick and Sean tank leads for £39. Figure he COULD value bet one pair here? Or even JT?

Idk, thoughts/flames. 

[cambridgealex]

I get what you're saying about pre, but can you explain in more detail why this is such a good spot?

It seems like you're saying that everytime a reg opens and a fish flats its a good spot to 3bet almost atc.

I stopped doing this stuff a long long time ago and needless to say results have improved...

Seriously, there are some vvvrare any two squeeze spots in live cash, any time it goes raise, call - does not qualify.

No problem with the squeeze if you have K8hh or J9s or QJo, but K4o is real garbage.

Lecture over

As played I sigh call river. Like the turn check back.

[Derbylad]

Personally i still value bet the turn, unlike Seans character to get tricky OOP and he's not calling many 3 bets down too lightly.

He's certainly got the ability to turn a lot of his hands into bluffs with a c/r on the turn and potential rivers but I don't see him peeling any AQ other than AdQx/ or obviously AQd (He is Usain Belton after all)... The same for most K10 combo's....and he'd probably C/R KJ combos on the flop considering its a draw heavy board.

so we're still beating a lot of his range, with some good implied odds too.

Make the turn 41 and re-evaluate...

The river in your lines only ever a sigh call.

PS: Fold Pre

[tight4better]

I get what you're saying about pre, but can you explain in more detail why this is such a good spot?

I'm not saying it's a SUPER good spot, because Sean thinks on/above my level he knows 99% of the time I'm not gonna be ool 3betting here, Jimmy is very passive so if he peels I'm likely just gonna cbet and take it down. If sean peels obviously it's harder but 100% of the time he's gonna check and I'm gonna bet almost all flops and likely take it down if he doesn't flop a decent pair imo.

It seems like you're saying that everytime a reg opens and a fish flats its a good spot to 3bet almost atc.

No not at all, if a fish opens this pot and jimmy flats I slam-dunk fold. I hardly ever think 3betting atc is viable, as you said, hands you noted I think are good to 3bet

I stopped doing this stuff a long long time ago and needless to say results have improved...

It's definitely not "typical" me as you know. I just thought it's a good time to exploit my "image"

Seriously, there are some vvvrare any two squeeze spots in live cash, any time it goes raise, call - does not qualify.

Agree 100%

Lecture over

Cheers buddy  

[tight4better]

PS: Fold Pre

ALRIGHT LAD SIMMER DOWN. SORRY I'M NOT GETTING THE LOT PLAYING PLO.

[Derbylad]

Your playing LIVE Poker at Gala Notts? You should be getting the lot with 2 cards, and then hiring security when you 1 out somebody on the river.

[muckthenuts]

Pre seems pretty bad.

Think turn bet is preferable, we have the best hand here still a bunch and a lot of Sean's range picks up equity on this card. We can def still call a c/r.

As played just flat river, seems thin to try get paid by worse.

[discomonkey]

I get what you're saying about pre, but can you explain in more detail why this is such a good spot?

It seems like you're saying that everytime a reg opens and a fish flats its a good spot to 3bet almost atc.

I stopped doing this stuff a long long time ago and needless to say results have improved...

Seriously, there are some vvvrare any two squeeze spots in live cash, any time it goes raise, call - does not qualify.

No problem with the squeeze if you have K8hh or J9s or QJo, but K4o is real garbage.

Lecture over

As played I sigh call river. Like the turn check back.

pretty much this on all counts, you can find better spots, turn check back is good for pot control/river value, river is a pretty trivial call i think given that i dont think any other option is viable.

[zerofive]

Pre is bad, obviously. Everyone's given you a ton of reasons already, and you're well aware of how to play optimally in these games. I know it's awesome to feel like Phil Galfond every now and then and do x because of y and you can't ever be z, but it's worth remembering that you're in Gala Nottingham where Jimmy always thinks you have aces, everyone else thinks you have nothing, and it's okay to carve up the money with the only other reg because there's plenty to go around. Not just saying you should never 3bet me, of course. And I appreciate your reasons for the 3ball, "Sean folds pre, Jimmy folds post, easy £20." But for the times your cbet doesn't do the job, and we have to empty the clip or resign ourselves to the fact that we set fire to £30 with K4o it's definitely worth waiting for a spot with some sort of equity, as Alex suggests.

As played, flop obviously fine. Although it's worth mentioning you made it £17, whereas your figure of £21 is way better.

Check turn, as it's a really horrible card and we get to see a free diamond innit. Plus by checking the turn you make money sometimes on the river. If you were going for two streets it would def be flop and river. Good to control the pot here and it gives us a pretty simple river decision a lot of the time I think. In terms of your range though, I don't have AK very often here. Would seem like 4balling the btn 3bet would be my line more often than call.

River. KQ and JT are pretty much my only worse value hands here and I'm not bluffing here that often, but this of course makes it a decent spot to bluff (i know that he knows etc.) Never ever raising obviously, and it's pretty hard to fold. So, call I guess.

Fold pre.

[Honeybadger]

I know it's awesome to feel like Phil Galfond every now and then and do x because of y and you can't ever be z

Sean gives an odd choice of player because Phil Galfond is a great example of someone who would never, ever, ever, ever make this preflop play. Partly because he is so strong on randomising his bluffs through equity, and keeping his frequencies completely in-line. But mainly because he is just, well, pretty damn tight! Since he's one of the best players in the world, he is a wonderful example of how to achieve poker excellence without feeling the need to make lots of 'highly imaginative' plays. It's a huge fallacy that the great players are all making a ton of amazing, risky, creative bluffs. In reality they make these plays every now and then... when the situation is absolutely spot on (and part of the 'situation' is the cards that you hold ofc).

So, obviously fold preflop as stated by the entire English speaking world. If you had K4s it might well be a good spot to squeeze and you should consider it based on the other factors in play during the hand. But K4o is just total junk with so little equity postflop, an inability to turn backdoor draws etc. The maths behind bluffing relies on a combination of fold equity and equity when called, and this applies to postflop just as much as preflop. The great thing about using equity to randomise your bluffs is that it is the perfect way to keep your frequencies in line, whilst ensuring that you are also choosing the absolute best equity hands to use for your bluffs.

Postflop... If you bet the turn you are making what is primarily (although not exclusively) a protection bet since Sean is not going to call very often with hands that have you beaten, and is never folding a better hand either. If you know 100% that Sean is never going to semi-bluff check-raise the turn here then making a protection bet is sort of ok. This is especially so because there is a little bit of value there as he will sometimes call with hands that you beat, especially one pair plus nut diamond draws etc (although often the value here is very thin anyway since his equity is very good vs your hand). But if Sean will ever c/r semi-bluff you then this makes betting primarily for protection a really awkward thing to do. In general, if a large part of the reason for betting is for protection then you need to at least consider not betting. Not saying you should never bet, but you at least need to think hard about it. This is mainly a NLHE concept and does not apply anywhere near as much in a game such as PLO.

River is a spot in which, given the very good price you are getting, it does not really matter what you do from an EV perspective, or at least it is so close that it doesn't really matter a great deal. Obviously you should be behind fairly damn often here, but you are getting a great price so that does not matter. It is these type of close spots in which stuff like live reads come into their own. Since it is so close, any live tell or other read (even one that you are super unsure about) should be enough to sway your decision one way or the other. Tells, reads, dynamics, history etc are all at their most useful for the 'super close' spots.

Also...

... although my read on Sean is he would lead this card with a made flush

He shouldn't be doing this. Unless it is an exploitative adjustment of course. Obviously that doesn't mean that he won't do so though.

[tight4better]

I know it's awesome to feel like Phil Galfond every now and then and do x because of y and you can't ever be z

Sean gives an odd choice of player because Phil Galfond is a great example of someone who would never, ever, ever, ever make this preflop play.

Not that I disagree with your post one bit badger fwiw. I still have a ton to work on which is why I posted this hand on Pha in the first place.

[Honeybadger]

I know it's awesome to feel like Phil Galfond every now and then and do x because of y and you can't ever be z

Sean gives an odd choice of player because Phil Galfond is a great example of someone who would never, ever, ever, ever make this preflop play.

Not that I disagree with your post one bit badger fwiw. I still have a ton to work on which is why I posted this hand on Pha in the first place.

Lol... I actually remember watching this! So my bad, especially regarding the 'never, ever, ever, ever' bit lol!

Both points still stand though. First Galfond is basically a pretty damn tight player, and this is actually the reason why he is so successful. And second, that you should... wait for it... fold preflop

BTW, I have been watching a ton of Galfond's PLO back catalogue on Bluefire recently. In one video he open-folds AKKJ from the Hijack! He explains that it is a slightly losing play to open this hand but that it would be a very marginal open from the CO. Even I am not that nitty lol!!

[tight4better]

Lol... I actually remember watching this! So my bad, especially regarding the 'never, ever, ever, ever' bit lol!

Both points still stand though. First Galfond is basically a pretty damn tight player, and this is actually the reason why he is so successful. And second, that you should... wait for it... fold preflop

BTW, I have been watching a ton of Galfond's PLO back catalogue on Bluefire recently. In one video he open-folds AKKJ from the Hijack! He explains that it is a slightly losing play to open this hand but that it would be a very marginal open from the CO. Even I am not that nitty lol!!

Rofl

Cheers for the feedback anyway mate, much appreciated.

[ruud]

[/quote]

BTW, I have been watching a ton of Galfond's PLO back catalogue on Bluefire recently. In one video he open-folds AKKJ from the Hijack! He explains that it is a slightly losing play to open this hand but that it would be a very marginal open from the CO. Even I am not that nitty lol!!
[/quote]

How is this a losing play? Double Suited surely it is a clear open? Blocker to being dominated and 3 str8 draws? Even without the nut/2nd nut flush draws, we have to be happy to at least flat a 3 bet?

[Honeybadger]

BTW, I have been watching a ton of Galfond's PLO back catalogue on Bluefire recently. In one video he open-folds AKKJ from the Hijack! He explains that it is a slightly losing play to open this hand but that it would be a very marginal open from the CO. Even I am not that nitty lol!!

How is this a losing play? Double Suited surely it is a clear open? Blocker to being dominated and 3 str8 draws? Even without the nut/2nd nut flush draws, we have to be happy to at least flat a 3 bet?

Obviously it was a completely unsuited AKKJ. With even just one suit I'm sure he'd open it, and double suited it's a premium hand. Tbh it was a big shock to me when I saw him fold it, and I'd always open it in the games I play in. Maybe in tough games it is going to be hard to make money with this since opponents are going to peel flops with very good frequencies and ranges and you're rarely going to turn equity to barrel with since you have no suits. I don't know if that is his exact reasoning though. All I know is that Galfond really did fold this hand from the Hijack. And he is much better at poker than me!