The merits of speech play (DTD Live Cash)

[ruud]

Hi guys,

First time posting in PHA so please go easy!

3 hands to look at here, all along the same topic, so will post in one thread. I know that all three hands are in the cooler ballpark, (and not all are losses), but thoughts on all elements of all hands welcome.

Hand 1

DTD Live Cash 0.50/1

Friday night, post tourney (SPT), sat down about 12.30am. .50/1 tables were full so a second table opened. 5 handed at this stage, after about an hour's play. I have lost a couple of medium size hands, and am down from a full sit down (£100) to about £35.

It folds to SB (who easily covers) who opens to £3; we have had a few of these battles, with the action often folded to us, so when I look down at  , I oblige and call.

flop 

check, check

Turn   

he checks, I lead for £9

here, the speech play begins where he says "I don't think you've got any of that mate, I'm all in"

I have £23 back, but can't see any way out, also, though I thought he was trying to induce, he can have so many 2 pair combos, I have to call.

I call and he turns over  to leave me drawing dead.

Here, though I am very rarely folding, I was definitely suckered in in my opinion. Should I even be listening to the speech play? The 5 looks like gin before he talks, but can I fold after he starts chatting? Ok, it's only £20 more, but what about if a full buyin more?

[Honeybadger]

here, the speech play begins where he says "I don't think you've got any of that mate, I'm all in"

This is ALWAYS the nuts!!

[ruud]

Hand 2

Took a walk around the cardroom, regrouped and decided to sit back down and play better.

Table is now 8 handed, and Villain from hand 1 had persuaded his mate to sit down, a little inebriated and wanting to play, hitting the Peroni hard.

Table has become a bit of a limpfest, as 0.50/1 can at DTD, and Mr Peroni has noticed this. He decided to shake it up by opening to £6 UTG.

Folds to us on the button with  . Very pretty, got position on Mr Peroni and have him covered (about 110-85), so gotta see a flop. I call. SB, who has been active since trying to sit down with about £400, comes along as expected and BB folds

Flop (£18)
 

Pretty good flop for me. BB checks, Mr Peroni bets £11. I call after a bit of thought, SB calls quickyl.

Turn (£51)
 

What a beautiful card that is. This time SB leads for £17, I expect with a Queen or 6 almost all the time here.

Mr Peroni dwells for a minute or so, then calls. I put him on a big pair here, and hope he can't lay it down.

Pretty sure that SB is either chopping or going broke, I elect to raise to £41. SB insta-folds

But now Mr Peroni is sat head in his hands, agaonising. Wow, maybe he has a 6? He looks at me "urgh, this is horrid, how can this happen?"

I decide to try his mate's trick on him. I say "Listen mate, I know you're folding, you know you're folding, the whole table knows you're folding, so just fold." A couple of other guys join in in my encouragement and get reminded of one player to a hand. He umms and ahhs for a while and announces 

 

He has  and is drawing dead.

He taps the table, says "wp", as does his mate, and leaves.

Then this happens:

BB Reg starts saying to me "you shouldn't do that you know. You shouldn't be saying that to him. It's not really on. Also, you're giving your hand away. I knew you had a queen. I don't know how he calls there. You're lucky he'd been drinking"

at which point the SB chips in "Yeah man, it was so obvious, why else do I fold a six there?!?!"

You folded a 6? wp sir. I didn't realise 0.50/1 was now the breeding ground of the next Phil Ivey. Remind me to stay away from you!

Thoughts on hand number 2? Did I talk him into it? Thought at the time that he def folds, unless I say something.

[cambridgealex]

here, the speech play begins where he says "I don't think you've got any of that mate, I'm all in"

This is ALWAYS the nuts!!

[smashedagain]

Hand 1 I'm thinking what a wanker the Villan is and unless he is one of 6 guys in there just punch him in the face.
Hand 2 I'm thinking what a wanker again
Can't wait for hand 3 lol

[ruud]

Hand 3

It's now 3.25 am, table is down to 4 handed and we are looking to break in the next few minutes. Table is now:

UTG: Reg from hand 2 who told me speech play is not on (~£100)
Button: Local, Table Captain all night, hasn't not hit a flop yet really, and has played almost every hand I have. Beat me once at showdown with Jack High when his gutshot didn't get there, and I looked to c/raise bluff, he checked behind  (~£200)
SB: Villain from hand 1, has played about 3 hands in 2 hours (~£180)
BB: Me, probably viewed by all as LAG, and talking too much, (~£230)

UTG Folds, Button raises to £3, SB folds (obv), I look down and find

 

I raise to £12, Button quickly calls. I say to him "God, you have to play every hand with me don't you?! I raise, you just have to call."

He smiles and we see

Flop (£24)
   

I lead for a very weak £9, and he quickyl calls.

I quip, "you just will not go away. You can't just let me have one?"

Turn (£42)
 

I again lead for £16, hoping it looks very weak.
He thinks for a bit then silently raises to £37.
Happy days.
I considered flatting here, but know he is capable of playing lots of draws this way, and if he wants to, I'd like to play for stacks obv.

I make it £68.
He thinks for a while and then announces 

 

I snap him off and he says "do you have queens?" I nod and flip them over, he grimaces. River comes a  , and he sits motionless. I was bricking for a minute that he might show 89 or 34 but he tables  .

As I stacking my chips (mini-brag), UTG Reg has another go along the lines of: "Seriously, you really shouldn't be doing that, you definitely gave your hand away. I knew you had queens. I can fold fives there. You need to stop that, talking like that, there's just no need."

I have been busy since, so haven't been back in DTD but I have definitely spent time thinking over these three hands and the merits of speech play and whether I will be trying it again in future, especially with this reg present.

What are the thoughts, is he right? Should I cut it out of my game?

Thanks in advance.

Sorry for long post, probably put in too much detail.

[smashedagain]

Probably the best pha thread IMO.
Now have a proper straigtner I'm the car park with the Dtd reg

People on here will ask you for names

[Honeybadger]

Engaging in this type of table talk is extremely classless and very bad for the game. If you win a pot from someone by 'tricking' them in this way then you have just increased the chances that they will leave the game, and perhaps stop playing for good. Same for anyone at the table who witnesses this and gets turned off by it. Most people want to play poker for fun, camaraderie and a bit of a gamble. If they see some local 'shrewdie' cleverly manipulating (this is meant ironically BTW) an opponent, or them, through speech play it is going to make them worry they are being sharked and are the mugs in the game. It is really short term thinking to do stuff like this, and there is a reason why the vast majority of strong players never do it - even though some of them might be skilled enough to actually do it properly (rather than the transparent nonsense quoted in this thread).

My advice would be to refrain from engaging in speech play during hands. If it works then you run the risk of turning players off the game. And to be honest, these sort of lines are so transparent that they are only going to work on very weak players anyway - and you'll get their money eventually through normal 'fair' play, without upsetting them. Obviously when some 'clever' guy uses this line on you, or sighs before raising, or whatever, then exploit his silliness by folding.

And I know you are now thinking, "Ooohh.... so I can reverse these tells on good players, and do these things when I am actually bluffing." But this is still just as classless, and just as bad for the game (although a bit more defensible since you are doing it on a 'decent player' rather than a helpless mug).

These things are all one-time-cons. And the point about one-time-cons is that they sacrifice crucial long-term considerations (the good of the game, your reputation, the desire of people to gamble with you etc) for short term gains which are usually very small.

Your prime goal in a poker game must be to give them a good time. The money will come to you in the long-term as long as you do this. One-time-cons do not help with this, they work against it.

[tight4better]

Name immediately.

[ruud]

Engaging in this type of table talk is extremely classless and very bad for the game. If you win a pot from someone by 'tricking' them in this way then you have just increased the chances that they will leave the game, and perhaps stop playing for good. Same for anyone at the table who witnesses this and gets turned off by it. Most people want to play poker for fun, camaraderie and a bit of a gamble. If they see some local 'shrewdie' cleverly manipulating (this is meant ironically BTW) an opponent, or them, through speech play it is going to make them worry they are being sharked and are the mugs in the game. It is really short term thinking to do stuff like this, and there is a reason why the vast majority of strong players never do it - even though some of them might be skilled enough to actually do it properly (rather than the transparent nonsense quoted in this thread).

My advice would be to refrain from engaging in speech play during hands. If it works then you run the risk of turning players off the game. And to be honest, these sort of lines are so transparent that they are only going to work on very weak players anyway - and you'll get their money eventually through normal 'fair' play, without upsetting them. Obviously when some 'clever' guy uses this line on you, or sighs before raising, or whatever, then exploit his silliness by folding.

And I know you are now thinking, "Ooohh.... so I can reverse these tells on good players, and do these things when I am actually bluffing." But this is still just as classless, and just as bad for the game (although a bit more defensible since you are doing it on a 'decent player' rather than a helpless mug).

These things are all one-time-cons. And the point about one-time-cons is that they sacrifice crucial long-term considerations (the good of the game, your reputation, the desire of people to gamble with you etc) for short term gains which are usually very small.

Your prime goal in a poker game must be to give them a good time. The money will come to you in the long-term as long as you do this. One-time-cons do not help with this, they work against it.

Loads of really vaild points here. The more I thought about it, the more I thought that what the reg was saying was probably on the money (though perhaps not the way it was put across). These lines I used are only working here and now, in this game.

In Hand 3, I actually think what I said has no impact at all. Set over set 4 handed is just a horrid cooler.

And yet, and I may be playing devil's advocate with myself here, at 0.50/1, are we not more likely to find "helpless mugs" than at any other point? And we are there to win, are we not?

Also, whoever, we're playing with or agaiinst, especially live, tells are such a massive part of the game. Bet sizing, body language, timing etc. Isn't what they say, and how they respond to what we say, just another layer to this?

I don't think the reg was out of line at all in what he said to me fwiw, considered it a genuine discussion on the pros and cons of speechplay.

Sorry to disappoint Jase.

[smashedagain]

[Young_gun]

Firsty speech play is rarely needed, usually you give more away then gain anything from it so stick to staying silent during a hand. Obviously general chat get involved but while you are in a hand just stay stumm, thats my theory anyway.

There are some merits to speech play, but its usually poor etiquette and only properly works if you understand it which you clearly dont ITT (apologise if sounds harsh)

Hand 1 you have peeled A2 suited, not really a fan of how the hand has played out and on turn you have to stack off really
Hand 2 NH doubt speech play made a difference though
Hnad 3 VNH again as stated cooler

[Honeybadger]

And yet, and I may be playing devil's advocate with myself here, at 0.50/1, are we not more likely to find "helpless mugs" than at any other point? And we are there to win, are we not?

You will get the helpless guys' money anyway. You need to make sure you do it with class and in the right spirit, otherwise they won't enjoy themselves and might not return.

Yes, we play poker to make money. And we make more money in the long run if we help nurture the right atmosphere in every game in which we play. If a recreational player feels he has been 'tricked' it will not be a nice experience for him, and you have just stopped him enjoying himself.

[MC]

I quip "you just will not go away. You can't just let me have one?"

ORLY

quip  (kwp)
n.
1. A clever, witty remark often prompted by the occasion.
2. A clever, often sarcastic remark; a gibe.

[kinboshi]

Don't engage in speech-play myself, but also don't understand those who get upset by it. It's like getting upset by someone check-raising with the nuts.