Countering this?

[muckthenuts]

Annoying spot, seems all too easy for him. Best long term decision? Seems reggy 288 hands 20/17.

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players -
The DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $255.61
Hero (SB): $100.00
BB: $100.00
UTG: $192.84
MP: $104.58
CO: $96.50

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is SB with
3 folds, BTN raises to $3, Hero raises to $10, 1 fold, BTN calls $7

Flop: ($21.00) (2 players)
Hero bets $12, BTN raises to $24, Hero

[pleno1]

Just calling down generally, sometimes soul read turn. In zoom its tempting to just fold alot as you just get used to folding a chunk of the one ak people try and raise flops a lot when generally they don't rep a lot. 200b deep is prob 3bf the flop but here I'd just call down.

[discomonkey]

why would you 3bet the flop 200bb deep??

[pleno1]

It makes life a lot easier and villain will play v v face up and honest. If we play passively then we give up initiative and guess on a lot of turns an rivers.

Keeping initiative and protecting is inportant, generally peoples ranges to c/r here will be pretty polarised.

[Honeybadger]

200b deep is prob 3bf the flop but here I'd just call down.

It makes life a lot easier and villain will play v v face up and honest. If we play passively then we give up initiative and guess on a lot of turns an rivers.

Keeping initiative and protecting is important, generally peoples ranges to c/r here will be pretty polarised.

Barring very specific reads, 3betting the flop when 200bbs deep is ridiculous. The only thing it achieves is that it makes the hand feel like it is easier to play. The problem with this is twofold. First, making a hand 'easier to play' is NOT the same as playing a hand in the most profitable manner. Second, and more important, it does not really make the hand easier to play... it just appears to. This is mainly because we get a lot of folds (all the times our opponent is bluffing basically) and so we feel great about things. Having the initiative is a comfort blanket and gives us a tempting illusion of good play in spots like this, but that is all it is... an illusion.

By 3betting we fail to maximise vs villain's turn/river bluffs since he will fold the flop. Plus we give villain a chance to 4bet as a (semi-)bluff which would lead to us making a FTOP mistake by folding the best hand. Obviously if you have a read/dynamic/gut-feeling that opponent is going to be 4betting widely on this flop then by all means 3bet to induce. But I assume if you get 4bet you are planning to fold against a standard reg at 100NL, esp when deep?

Yes, we gain protection for our hand... but really what are we protecting against? Many flush draws are favourites vs our hand because they have overcards too - so we don't even have the 'best hand', which makes it tough to justify betting for protection. And most of his other 'bluffs' only have between 2 and 6 outs against us. It is these 2-out to 6-out hands that we are protecting against, and we are risking a lot to prevent them realising their 5%-25% equity - especially given that villain might semi-bluff jam forcing us to fold. Unless we know that villain will rarely bluff the turn or river with these hands then we maximise vs these hands by playing to encourage and then pick off his bluffs (ofc if we know he never bets again unless he outdraws us then obviously 3betting purely for protection becomes more interesting since there is now no value at all in bluff-catching).

Yes we are guessing on the turn and river, and so the hand FEELS harder to play. But this is not sufficient reason to 3bet. Plus it is merely another illusion. What happens when we 3bet the flop and villain calls? Now how do you feel about the hand... it doesn't feel so easy to play any more, right? What happens when he clicks it back or jams... does it feel easy to play now? It only feels 'easy to play' when he folds his bluffs... which is actually the last thing you want him to do!

Obviously if you call down and opponent has a King, or gets there with a flush draw, you end up feeling that you played your hand badly in some way. And if he is bluffing with QJo and hits a Jack on the river to win the pot, you might feel even worse. But all this is merely an illusion... the opposite type of illusion that having the initiative creates.

[pleno1]

Totally disagree but replying on phone is going to be troublesome!

[skolsuper]

200b deep is prob 3bf the flop but here I'd just call down.

It makes life a lot easier and villain will play v v face up and honest. If we play passively then we give up initiative and guess on a lot of turns an rivers.

Keeping initiative and protecting is important, generally peoples ranges to c/r here will be pretty polarised.

Barring very specific reads, 3betting the flop when 200bbs deep is ridiculous. The only thing it achieves is that it makes the hand feel like it is easier to play. The problem with this is twofold. First, making a hand 'easier to play' is NOT the same as playing a hand in the most profitable manner. Second, and more important, it does not really make the hand easier to play... it just appears to. This is mainly because we get a lot of folds (all the times our opponent is bluffing basically) and so we feel great about things. Having the initiative is a comfort blanket and gives us a tempting illusion of good play in spots like this, but that is all it is... an illusion.

By 3betting we fail to maximise vs villain's turn/river bluffs since he will fold the flop. Plus we give villain a chance to 4bet as a (semi-)bluff which would lead to us making a FTOP mistake by folding the best hand. Obviously if you have a read/dynamic/gut-feeling that opponent is going to be 4betting widely on this flop then by all means 3bet to induce. But I assume if you get 4bet you are planning to fold against a standard reg at 100NL, esp when deep?

Yes, we gain protection for our hand... but really what are we protecting against? Many flush draws are favourites vs our hand because they have overcards too - so we don't even have the 'best hand', which makes it tough to justify betting for protection. And most of his other 'bluffs' only have between 2 and 6 outs against us. It is these 2-6 out hands that we are protecting against, and we are risking a lot to do so - especially given that opponent might semi-bluff jam forcing us to fold - and simultaneously preventing us making money vs his barrels with these hands.

Yes we are guessing on the turn and river, and so the hand FEELS harder to play. But this is not sufficient reason to 3bet. Plus it is merely another illusion. What happens when we 3bet the flop and villain calls? Now how do you feel about the hand... it doesn't feel so easy to play any more, right? What happens when he clicks it back or jams... does it feel easy to play now? It only feels 'easy to play' when he folds his bluffs... which is actually the last thing you want him to do!

Obviously if you call down and opponent has a King, or gets there with a flush draw, you end up feeling that you played your hand badly in some way. And if he is bluffing with QJo and hits a Jack on the river to win the pot, you might feel even worse. But all this is merely an illusion... the opposite type of illusion that having the initiative creates.

Agree I think. I haven't looked at the actual hand under discussion, but I agree with the general assertion and have bolded part of pleno's post to say that in general when opponents are polarised you should tend towards less aggressive lines.

[Honeybadger]

Totally disagree but replying on phone is going to be troublesome!

Lol... I am an old git and I write over half of my extremely long posts on my phone. You are a cool young dude... get that finger working!

I am in the mood for a heated debate tonight 

Actually I am not... I am going to bed soon. But still shocked and disappointed at your phone excuse

[skolsuper]

Totally disagree but replying on phone is going to be troublesome!

Damn was looking forward to seeing how you would size your piano sandwich.

[pleno1]

the main point of the argument is the reaction I our flop 3bet which is completely honest. Gotta find out where you are obv! And the fact that people c/r FDs on paired boards alottttt less from my experience.

[Honeybadger]

Agree I think. I haven't looked at the actual hand under discussion, but I agree with the general assertion and have bolded part of pleno's post to say that in general when opponents are polarised you should tend towards less aggressive lines.

Yes, especially with the mid-strength parts of your range as in the actual hand. If villain's raising range is polarised here we should also be polarised with our 3bets. Nothing else makes sense.

Patrick, when you get raised on this flop you have a bluff catcher. So play to catch some bluffs. You can't 3bet for value, you are very unlikely to make a better hand fold, and I have already explained why betting purely for protection is not as good as it 'feels'.

I realise that TT is 'vulnerable' on this flop - i.e. there is a flush draw, plus lots of overcards to TT can hit turn/river. But these are merely problems that you have to deal with in the process of playing your hand in the most profitable manner.

[SuuPRlim]

Totally disagree but replying on phone is going to be troublesome!

Damn was looking forward to seeing how you would size your piano sandwich.

[Honeybadger]

the main point of the argument is the reaction I our flop 3bet which is completely honest. Gotta find out where you are obv! And the fact that people c/r FDs on paired boards alottttt less from my experience.

You can't be serious here, surely? I'm not even going to reply to part of this because you're just going to post and say "Come on sucker, I was joking obviously... how could you believe I think that 3betting in this spot to 'find out where you are' is a good play?"

Also, why do we want to force our opponent to act completely honestly with his weak hands? I'd much prefer him to keep bluffing with hands that have little equity vs our TT.

BTW... villain is in position so it is not a c/r. Granted I am in pedantic mood tonight, but it is also kind of important! Tbh though, if we were in position then flatting the c/r would be even more clearly the best play, and it would not even be remotely close between flatting and 3betting IMO.

[pleno1]

I'd rather have k5 and axss in my bluffcatch obv range than 10s. 10s is a really bad hand to have as a bluffcatcher here with potential pot to stack ratio and vulnerability of having to call down a considerable amount of bbs with no initiative and massive vulnerability.

I understand come rely your argument and once probably would flat 10s in this spot but now to me with the current state of the games and the reactions I've seen to flop 3bets on paired boards deep and the amount of times I've been in absolute coffin spots I think it's an easy flop 3bet.

I also understand we all have certain game plans and it could be possible that flatting for you is fine whilst 3bettong for me is fine, although I think I 99% of people went for the flop 3bet in a vacuum in these kind of spots they'd make more money.

[JustinSayne]

I agree with Patrick here.

Reason being is he turns his range face up once we 3bet the flop and it doesnt just 'appear' to be easier to play. It is actually a whole lot easier to play.

How do you expect him to react to a flop 3bet with diferent parts of his range? Once you answer that you will realise why 3betting the flop is the absa nizzles