Ranges and Why

[jgcblack]

- its more profitable to shove atc bvb/ btn vs blinds than a 5% range utg. (I believe)

This cannot possibly be true.

Makes a good story though

Can't remember the exact math/ justification.

But irrc its something along the lines of:

- When we shove UTG vs 8 other people we get called by x range with x equity vs our x range.
- In effect we will be getting called 'a chunk' even if its as little as 30% (think its higher with a 5-8% calling range - but that might be too wide) that still means we're up against a good hand almost always, sometimes completely crushed and rarely ahead even if we only shove 77+, KQs, AQo  (the times we're ahead we're often flipping)
- In a bvb situation many people will not call correctly
- In fact, many will fold too much, allowing us to shove 80%+ and getting a phenominal amount of folds.
- When we do get called by the BB, we will be called by a wider range than if we were UTG vs 8 people
- As such we will likely have more equity more often (in effect being in a lot of 60/40's)
- We can get called by worse which rarely happens in the other scenario


or something... I can't remember exactly, just rememeber in one of the many math series I watched the guy advocated shoving a sickeningly tight range in EP/MP in favor of the numberous amount of times we get folds when we shove LP/bvb with good ranges.


Get one of the good players in here to tell me where I've mis-interpreted it.  (not meaning you guys aren't good ofc)

[Honeybadger]

But a 5% range is really strong!! With a large chunk of that range we are HOPING for a call. And we are not crushed when they call very often at all. Over half of that range is QQ+ or AK. Surely this shoving stuff is 'symmetrical'?. If they call too much then hands like JJ and AQ become good for value. If they call too little then you have more fold equity to compensate for the equity disadvantage that the bottom of your range has when called.

[jgcblack]

But a 5% range is really strong!! With a large chunk of that range we are HOPING for a call. And we are not crushed when they call very often at all. Over half of that range is QQ+ or AK. Surely this shoving stuff is 'symmetrical'?. If they call too much then hands like JJ and AQ become good for value. If they call too little then you have more fold equity to compensate for the equity disadvantage that the bottom of your range has when called.

True.. However combinatorics dictate that when were shoving Ax we're more likely to get called by a pair/ same hand.  Obv no big wins there. When we've shoved a pair, and get a call from AQ/AK they've got plenty of equity.

The important part of this is that we get a huge number of consistent +bb's from shoving btn vs bb/ bvb and getting the folds.

obv we want the call and double up but if you've seen the graphs of variance of mtt's then you need to run super good to 'hold' in enough big all in pots.

[youthnkzR]

A2s+, A8o+, KJo+, K10s+, 22+, 910s+

[WotRTheChances]

44+ A7s+ A5s-A2s ATo+ K9s+ KJo+ QTs+ JTs is unexploitable here, but i'd be narrowing this down to something like 66+ Axs ATo+ KJs+ KQo QJs just because it's live and even a 8bb stack has decent FE and you can have an edge still out of 8bb with an orbit to pick up better than QTs utg.

[Honeybadger]

But a 5% range is really strong!! With a large chunk of that range we are HOPING for a call. And we are not crushed when they call very often at all. Over half of that range is QQ+ or AK. Surely this shoving stuff is 'symmetrical'?. If they call too much then hands like JJ and AQ become good for value. If they call too little then you have more fold equity to compensate for the equity disadvantage that the bottom of your range has when called.

True.. However combinatorics dictate that when were shoving Ax we're more likely to get called by a pair/ same hand.  Obv no big wins there. When we've shoved a pair, and get a call from AQ/AK they've got plenty of equity.

The important part of this is that we get a huge number of consistent +bb's from shoving btn vs bb/ bvb and getting the folds.

obv we want the call and double up but if you've seen the graphs of variance of mtt's then you need to run super good to 'hold' in enough big all in pots.

I understand the principle behind what you are saying obviously. And if you were comparing jamming ATC on the BTN to opening a 10% range UTG then I can see that there might be a lot of validity in what you are saying. But we are talking about a 5% range here!! This is a VERY narrow and strong range, and a 100% range from the BTN is, well, rather less narrow and strong

I get the idea that, to paraphrase what you are saying, 'if we jam a pair and get called by AQ, or we jam AK and get called by a pair, we are only flipping'. But what about when we jam a pair and get called by a smaller pair, or jam AK and get called by AQ? Combinatorics does not make it less likely that an opponent will have QQ or JJ when you have AA or KK!

A 5% range is just SO SO strong and a 100% range is just SO SO weak. I mean if you can PROVE this to me mathematically then go for it... but my gut says this won't be possible, because the initial statement is incorrect.

Just to repeat... I do get the wider principle that you are making with this statement. I just think the exact numbers given are WAY off.

[Oxford_HRV]

A2s+, A8o+, KJo+, K10s+, 22+, 910s+

no fear

[ForthThistle]

Many Thanks for the feedback.

I had 77 UTG and shipped.

SB woke up with QQ.

Thanks.

[Rod]

Many Thanks for the feedback.

I had 77 UTG and shipped.

SB woke up with QQ.

Thanks.

Can I steal this thread please?  Hope you don't mind David but I want to know the calling range.

What should the SB calling range be? Obv QQ is a snap and just unlucky for David to walk into that. I am the SB with about 125K if I remember rightly. I know David is a strong player but expect him to be opening up a bit as the blinds are going up and he is quite short stacked, he has not been playing that reckless at this table but has got a few shoves through, I doubt he is shoving with total air OOP here though. I am also sure he is not going for the min cash, but the final table, and is aware of how the table is playing (too tight for this part of the tournament). I have Eck behind me in the BB who also knows all of this but I don't expect him to be calling that light after I reshove from the SB.

What should I be calling with? I was probably calling with AQ+ and TT+ is this too tight or about right?

[Sulphur man]

How meny players on your table 7 or 8?. Is it hand for hand yet?. Range will be slightly different for the 7 handed table
also if its not hand for hand will have an effect on pushing range. Two tables now though yes?

Would be more concerned with my M than with BB's at this stage taking into consideration antes/shorthanded.

[Sulphur man]

Rod as Keys would say "one word sngwiz"

[rfgqqabc]

Many Thanks for the feedback.

I had 77 UTG and shipped.

SB woke up with QQ.

Thanks.

Can I steal this thread please?  Hope you don't mind David but I want to know the calling range.

What should the SB calling range be? Obv QQ is a snap and just unlucky for David to walk into that. I am the SB with about 125K if I remember rightly. I know David is a strong player but expect him to be opening up a bit as the blinds are going up and he is quite short stacked, he has not been playing that reckless at this table but has got a few shoves through, I doubt he is shoving with total air OOP here though. I am also sure he is not going for the min cash, but the final table, and is aware of how the table is playing (too tight for this part of the tournament). I have Eck behind me in the BB who also knows all of this but I don't expect him to be calling that light after I reshove from the SB.

What should I be calling with? I was probably calling with AQ+ and TT+ is this too tight or about right?

Depending on the original position of open, something like 88+ AQ+ Really depends on image too, some live tournies you can fold 88 here too.

[Rod]

Many Thanks for the feedback.

I had 77 UTG and shipped.

SB woke up with QQ.

Thanks.

Can I steal this thread please?  Hope you don't mind David but I want to know the calling range.

What should the SB calling range be? Obv QQ is a snap and just unlucky for David to walk into that. I am the SB with about 125K if I remember rightly. I know David is a strong player but expect him to be opening up a bit as the blinds are going up and he is quite short stacked, he has not been playing that reckless at this table but has got a few shoves through, I doubt he is shoving with total air OOP here though. I am also sure he is not going for the min cash, but the final table, and is aware of how the table is playing (too tight for this part of the tournament). I have Eck behind me in the BB who also knows all of this but I don't expect him to be calling that light after I reshove from the SB.

What should I be calling with? I was probably calling with AQ+ and TT+ is this too tight or about right?

Depending on the original position of open, something like 88+ AQ+ Really depends on image too, some live tournies you can fold 88 here too.

Can you fold 88 against somebody you know is good though?

[rfgqqabc]

Many Thanks for the feedback.

I had 77 UTG and shipped.

SB woke up with QQ.

Thanks.

Can I steal this thread please?  Hope you don't mind David but I want to know the calling range.

What should the SB calling range be? Obv QQ is a snap and just unlucky for David to walk into that. I am the SB with about 125K if I remember rightly. I know David is a strong player but expect him to be opening up a bit as the blinds are going up and he is quite short stacked, he has not been playing that reckless at this table but has got a few shoves through, I doubt he is shoving with total air OOP here though. I am also sure he is not going for the min cash, but the final table, and is aware of how the table is playing (too tight for this part of the tournament). I have Eck behind me in the BB who also knows all of this but I don't expect him to be calling that light after I reshove from the SB.

What should I be calling with? I was probably calling with AQ+ and TT+ is this too tight or about right?

Depending on the original position of open, something like 88+ AQ+ Really depends on image too, some live tournies you can fold 88 here too.

Can you fold 88 against somebody you know is good though?

not really, but shouldn't call those ridiculous live nits who wait for a premium.

[youthnkzR]

Many Thanks for the feedback.

I had 77 UTG and shipped.

SB woke up with QQ.

Thanks.

Can I steal this thread please?  Hope you don't mind David but I want to know the calling range.

What should the SB calling range be? Obv QQ is a snap and just unlucky for David to walk into that. I am the SB with about 125K if I remember rightly. I know David is a strong player but expect him to be opening up a bit as the blinds are going up and he is quite short stacked, he has not been playing that reckless at this table but has got a few shoves through, I doubt he is shoving with total air OOP here though. I am also sure he is not going for the min cash, but the final table, and is aware of how the table is playing (too tight for this part of the tournament). I have Eck behind me in the BB who also knows all of this but I don't expect him to be calling that light after I reshove from the SB.

What should I be calling with? I was probably calling with AQ+ and TT+ is this too tight or about right?

AJs+ / AQo+ / 88+