Preflop theory: Tournament play, big blind facing a button open.

[rfgqqabc]

So we are in the big, and we have the following stack sizes, and are virtually readless.
A)30 bigs
B) 40 bigs
C) 50 bigs

We are facing a button min. This is tim exact scenario the hh is from, as a base idea for the spot. Blinds 200/400 50 ante. Live 6max tourney. Guy's moved to table 7 hands ago and not played a hand. Youngish about 28 headphones no hoodie. I have 33 in the big facing a min. I have 15k and are covered.
What do we do here?

Back to the theory side, what do we do with 98s king ten off etc. 3bet fold 33 seems horrible readless, but how profitable rs flatting? I'm sure I've read flatting 22 100bb deep to a 3x is -ev but our exact price is similar, but obviously spr is k lot higher.

Not sure if this spot is really obvious or whether theory changes here, a year ago I don't think I consider folding so not sure what's right. Spoke about it today and the other guy (Luke for people that know him) that peel is fine but guy's played like 1m hands heads up lifetime so he is obviously really comfortable. This post may be super rambley but can't proofread effectively on my phone. Cheers guys

[Honeybadger]

I think we should flat with 98s and 33, and 3bet/fold KTo as a bluff (sometimes call or fold it as an adjustment if you have a specific read on villain). It is a bit more difficult with only 30bbs (although I'd still play the same) but with bigger eff stacks this seems pretty clear to me.

Versus the min raise you are getting great direct pot odds (about 4 to 1) so the only reason not to play a wide amount of hands is because you are going to lose money through the later streets with them, i.e. reverse implied odds either through making a worse hand or just 'being outplayed'. This is a reasonable thing to concern yourself with when playing offsuit stuff that almost never smashes a flop like KTo (hence why you might prefer to 3bet bluff with it). But this is clearly not the case with either 33 or 98s.

With 33 you can make money simply playing fit or fold/set-mining (4 to 1 direct odds plus at least reasonably implied odds even if only to pick up a cbet). The 98s hand is a great hand to balance the 33 with, because with this hand you should be planning to often c/r a TON of flops... e.g. any time you have a gutshot or a BDFD. So you can c/r small on a 237 flop (with one of your suit for the 98s) or a 357 flop with both hands. By playing suited connected hands like 98s and fit or fold hands like 33 you are able to easily create polarised c/r ranges on the flop. Plus the eff stacks are large enough for this flop c/r to be a leveraged one. Basically, flatting the 98s and then playing really aggro with your backdoors allows you to play fit or fold with the 33.

Edited to say: I just noticed I had mistyped one of the flop examples. I had put Q57 by accident, when obviously it should have been 357. Have changed it now. Obviously I was not intending to recommend c/r 33 on a Q57 flop, since this would be ridiculous and contradicts everything else I said!

[rfgqqabc]

Do we need balance? Can't I just quietly muck 22-55 here and be fine? My friend argued me can c/r chunks too but its a bad hand to bluff raise with compared to the spots you mentioned with 98s.

[Honeybadger]

No we don't need to balance. But you entitled your post 'Preflop Theory' so I took you at your word and mentioned a little bit about balance.

You can quietly muck small pairs if you want, but they should be a profitable flat in a vacuum even if your plan is to play 100% fit or fold. The price you are getting is so good that you hardly need to make any more money postflop. Calling with small pairs to set mine OOP vs wide ranges is often a leak, even when fairly deep in a cash game. However this is not the case in this spot because with the antes and the min raise you are getting such a huge price. When getting a massive price preflop you don't need to make much money postflop in order to be able to profitably play a hand.

BTW, the concept of how the 98s and the 33 work together for your postflop range is a really important one IMO. You should be planning on attacking cbets very aggressively on the flop since villain is likely to have nothing such a large amount of time (given he has opened from the BTN). This is why suited cards are so good - you can use your backdoor draws to keep your frequencies in line whilst at the same time choosing the spots with the most equity (and barrelling opportunities) to attack. And since you will be attacking so often on the flop it is really good to have a small part of your range that is fit-or-fold but is nutted when it does fit.

All this is based on the fact that you are getting such a good price preflop though remember. Facing a 3x raise with no antes I'd not be giving the same advice.

[rfgqqabc]

I thought I understood your explanation of balance and how the 98s /33 work, and to see it articulated in such a manner really is a pleasure. Thanks a lot for your post. Where is the borderline stack size with 33? Presumably about 33bb? Definitely going to get excel and a calculator and play with some ranges, make a few graphs and bell curves etc.

P.s, I have no idea if you thought I was just being a twat mentioning balance, I pretty much post as I'd speak about it and the issue of balance stuck out to me. Always paranoid about looking ungrateful esespecially as I always seem to argue the same side

[Honeybadger]

No problem, I didn't think you were being a twat at all lol

I never mind having my ideas challenged anyway... since, as you will probably have noticed, I enjoy arguing my case!

[T_Mar]

I think we should flat with 98s and 33, and 3bet/fold KTo as a bluff (sometimes call or fold it as an adjustment if you have a specific read on villain). It is a bit more difficult with only 30bbs (although I'd still play the same) but with bigger eff stacks this seems pretty clear to me.

Versus the min raise you are getting great direct pot odds (about 4 to 1) so the only reason not to play a wide amount of hands is because you are going to lose money through the later streets with them, i.e. reverse implied odds either through making a worse hand or just 'being outplayed'. This is a reasonable thing to concern yourself with when playing offsuit stuff that almost never smashes a flop like KTo (hence why you might prefer to 3bet bluff with it). But this is clearly not the case with either 33 or 98s.

With 33 you can make money simply playing fit or fold/set-mining (4 to 1 direct odds plus at least reasonably implied odds even if only to pick up a cbet). The 98s hand is a great hand to balance the 33 with, because with this hand you should be planning to often c/r a TON of flops... e.g. any time you have a gutshot or a BDFD. So you can c/r small on a 237 flop (with one of your suit for the 98s) or a 357 flop with both hands. By playing suited connected hands like 98s and fit or fold hands like 33 you are able to easily create polarised c/r ranges on the flop. Plus the eff stacks are large enough for this flop c/r to be a leveraged one. Basically, flatting the 98s and then playing really aggro with your backdoors allows you to play fit or fold with the 33.

Edited to say: I just noticed I had mistyped one of the flop examples. I had put Q57 by accident, when obviously it should have been 357. Have changed it now. Obviously I was not intending to recommend c/r 33 on a Q57 flop, since this would be ridiculous and contradicts everything else I said!

Re c/r lots of flops with 89s type hands… When you make this type of play, with ~30bb – 40bb, are you doing so with then intention of continuing aggression on later streets, or is it a ‘take a stab’ idea (with some small amount of equity if we called), I mean obv we fold if the guy goes and 3bets the flop in most cases, but when he calls are you intending on barrelling unimproved turns or just giving up?  I guess obv barrel when equity improves ? Is board texture main consideration when deciding whether to to continue? thks

[Honeybadger]

Re c/r lots of flops with 89s type hands… When you make this type of play, with ~30bb – 40bb, are you doing so with then intention of continuing aggression on later streets, or is it a ‘take a stab’ idea (with some small amount of equity if we called), I mean obv we fold if the guy goes and 3bets the flop in most cases, but when he calls are you intending on barrelling unimproved turns or just giving up?  I guess obv barrel when equity improves ? Is board texture main consideration when deciding whether to to continue? thks

We should be more inclined to continue barrelling when we turn equity. So if we c/r 98s on 732r there are 10 cards that can come to give us a FD plus a further 6 cards that can give us an OESD (no double counting). That is about a third of the deck. If we chose to add in gutshots that gives us a further 6 'barrelling outs'. It is of course situation/read dependent though: Don't go barrelling just because theory says so if you 'know' an opponent has made up his mind to call you down.

This is why it is good to have backdoor draws in the air part of our c/r range - they can turn equity which allows us to make profitable barrels (since we get a 'discount' on the turn bluff due to having ~20% equity plus implied odds when called). Choosing the hands that have backdoors to bluff with, and then deciding whether to continue barrelling based on whether you turn a backdoor allows you to keep your frequencies in line and means that you are randomising through equity rather than just 'guessing'. And this of course is why suited cards are so much better than offsuit cards - their hot and cold equity is not that much greater than their offsuit cousins, but that extra bit of equity can be leveraged massively through semi-bluffing.

[T_Mar]

Re c/r lots of flops with 89s type hands… When you make this type of play, with ~30bb – 40bb, are you doing so with then intention of continuing aggression on later streets, or is it a ‘take a stab’ idea (with some small amount of equity if we called), I mean obv we fold if the guy goes and 3bets the flop in most cases, but when he calls are you intending on barrelling unimproved turns or just giving up?  I guess obv barrel when equity improves ? Is board texture main consideration when deciding whether to to continue? thks

We should be more inclined to continue barrelling when we turn equity. So if we c/r 98s on 732r there are 10 cards that can come to give us a FD plus a further 6 cards that can give us an OESD (no double counting). That is about a third of the deck. If we chose to add in gutshots that gives us a further 6 'barrelling outs'. It is of course situation/read dependent though: Don't go barrelling just because theory says so if you 'know' an opponent has made up his mind to call you down.

This is why it is good to have backdoor draws in the air part of our c/r range - they can turn equity which allows us to make profitable barrels (since we get a 'discount' on the turn bluff due to having ~20% equity plus implied odds when called). Choosing the hands that have backdoors to bluff with, and then deciding whether to continue barrelling based on whether you turn a backdoor allows you to keep your frequencies in line and means that you are randomising through equity rather than just 'guessing'. And this of course is why suited cards are so much better than offsuit cards - their hot and cold equity is not that much greater than their offsuit cousins, but that extra bit of equity can be leveraged massively through semi-bluffing.

thks for reply

[TL900]

peel small pairs from the bb when its only 1bb to see the flop. we will be getting nearly 40-1 on our money so its an easy setmine, and as someone said we can c/r alot of flops etc.

[pleno1]

imfromsweden i have a pair, im all in, cnat be that bad.  fk sake alwyas

[railtard1]

peel small pairs from the bb when its only 1bb to see the flop. we will be getting nearly 40-1 on our money so its an easy setmine, and as someone said we can c/r alot of flops etc.

40-1?

set mining pairs from the bb vs the button is not so good imo. Were not playin vs a tight range where by we get action when we flop a set. I prefer 3/5 betting (obviously situation / opponent dependent).

Reading some of the thoughts in this thread is interesting i agree with some, but disagree with most tbh.

30bb with 22 vs a button min from a active player opening a average-high % of buttons im far happier shoving than folding, and happier foldin than calling.

But llike, NOTHING has to be standard in mtt's anymore. Yes some stuff is unavoidable, but we dont allways have to play by rules. Also what might be optimal and "standard" for one person might be terrible for someone else

[TL900]

peel small pairs from the bb when its only 1bb to see the flop. we will be getting nearly 40-1 on our money so its an easy setmine, and as someone said we can c/r alot of flops etc.

40-1?

Were playing 15k with 400 to call, so nearly 40-1 implied.

I think 3betting an unkown readless in the hope that he 4b's is optimistic with no info, online i def agree 3/5 is way better than calling with history etc. i think live peeling might be better though. Live players dont like folding etc. if he flats our 3b life just sucks too.

[Rupert]

33
A) jam
b) call
c) call

98s
a) 3b/f
b) call
c) call

KTo
a) call
b) call
c) call

[Rupert]

ya i like 3 to 5ing 33 when 40-50bb deep vs some opponents too but most peoples image from BB is pretty tight everyones a peeler