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Author Topic: Confidence at an all time low so playing badly and clueless.  (Read 68755 times)
Tal
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« Reply #345 on: November 16, 2012, 03:06:01 PM »

Set of rules for his next comp.

Number 1 no talking

Number 2. Smartly attired.
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"You must take your opponent into a deep, dark forest, where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one"
DaveShoelace
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« Reply #346 on: November 16, 2012, 03:07:27 PM »

Set of rules for his next comp.

Number 1 no talking

Number 2. Smartly attired.

Number 3. Has to put his hand up and ask the dealer for permission to go to the toilet.
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paulhouk03
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« Reply #347 on: November 16, 2012, 03:09:40 PM »

Set of rules for his next comp.

Number 1 no talking

Number 2. Smartly attired.

Number 3. Has to put his hand up and ask the dealer for permission to go to the toilet.

Number 4 do not hendon mob everyone
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George2Loose
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« Reply #348 on: November 16, 2012, 03:10:03 PM »

This isn't a joking matter Barry
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Ole Ole Ole Ole!
Woodsey
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« Reply #349 on: November 16, 2012, 03:10:29 PM »

Set of rules for his next comp.

Number 1 no talking

Number 2. Smartly attired.

Number 3. Has to put his hand up and ask the dealer for permission to go to the toilet.

Number 4 do not hendon mob everyone

5. Only allowed to use phone for 5 mins every hour, pay attention to the table.
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #350 on: November 16, 2012, 03:21:48 PM »

TEDxPennQuarter - Frank Lantz - Reinventing Gaming (includes EV in poker discussion)





Fooled by Randomness is a great read.





edit Jase should have to do a Gus style every hand revealed. Then has to bam up some pha threads when he gets back.
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nirvana
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« Reply #351 on: November 16, 2012, 03:29:04 PM »

Has anyone offered Stu a column yet?

This stuff is excellent; seems to me he puts more effort into this thread than some people I know do at their work on a daily basis.

Was thinking the same whilst sat at my desk reading his posts.

lol, most excellent :-)
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #352 on: November 16, 2012, 03:31:30 PM »

we do realise Stu plays poker semi regularly lol?!

he should be busy not sleeping at the moment!
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #353 on: November 16, 2012, 03:34:46 PM »

3. A top online player once told me some stuff about the top players playing poker to such a high standard that they played almost perfect always taking the correct lines so that they were not able to be exploited. If you knew exactly how this player played everyhand then surly you must be able to exploit this.

This is going off the topic completely, but I am going to address it for completeness sake.

First, the top players DO NOT always take the perfect GTO (Game Theory Optimal) unexploitable lines. There are two reasons for this:

1. It is not always possible to know what the best GTO line is. Poker is far too complicated for that. It is true that certain spots are 'solved' - e.g. optimal shoving ranges when relatively short stacked. But it is still the case that the vast majority of spots in poker when you have more than 30 big blinds are unsolved.

2. Even if poker was fully solved, the top players would still not take the optimal unexploitable line. They would instead choose to EXPLOIT their opponents by taking a line that takes advantage of their opponent's leaks. If their opponent worked out what they were doing he could adjust and in turn EXPLOIT THEM. Any deviation from the GTO line is, by definition exploitable.

Easy example... if you think an opponent is a calling station then you EXPLOIT him by never bluffing and value betting a little thinner than usual. This would not be the GTO way to play - you are supposed to always have a certain amount of bluffs in your range. But you would make more money remembering never to bluff a calling station than you would if you dogmatically continued to think, "I've GOT to have a small amount of bluffs here, to balance my play. So I will make a bluff this time in order to keep myself balanced". You'd still win money in the long-term from this opponent if you followed a perfectly balanced GTO strategy (a balanced strategy will automatically make money against an unbalanced strategy, unlike in a game such as paper, scissors, stone in which a perfectly balanced strategy will only ever break even). But you would make more money if you deviate from 'optimal' strategy in order to exploit his tendency to call too much.

Of course, by deviating from this GTO strategy you make yourself exploitable in turn. So if your opponent realised that you had adjusted to him, he could counter-exploit your adjustment by never ever bluff catching vs you. Now you'd find that your value hands were not getting paid off, and your opponent was crushing you by folding. So you would have to start bluffing again.

This is what poker is all about of course! Adjusting to your opponents, then adjusting as they adjust to your adjustments. And so on.

Second, you are incorrect in your assumption that if someone is playing a perfectly optimal and unexploitable strategy then if you know what that strategy is you can still beat them. You cannot do so. The best you can achieve is to break even in the long-term through also choosing to follow a perfectly balanced and unexploitable strategy.

For example, imagine you and me get to the river in a hand. I have bet every street and my range is uncapped and polarised (i.e. I am either bluffing or have the effective nuts - so almost all your hands, even the relatively strong ones, are now bluff catchers). The pot is £1000 and I now jam all-in for exactly £1000. You are pondering what to do with your TPTK hand. Now I do something bizarre. I tell you my exact range. And this range is made up of 66.6% combos of hands that beat you and 33.3% of complete bluffs. And for whatever reason you KNOW I am telling the truth. Plus, you can't get any physical tells on me or anything like that, so you cannot work out which part of that range I have this particular time. What should you do? Call or fold?

The answer is that it does not matter what you do. Regardless of your decision, I have WON THE HAND. If you fold your EV is of course £0 and I win the £1000 that is in the pot. If you call then your EV is also £0 because you will win £2000 once for every two times you lose £1000. If your EV is £0 when you call and there is £1000 in the pot then that £1000 must have gone to me.

So, in this situation even though you know exactly what my strategy is the best you can do is to break even on the river. Which means that I win all the money that has been put into the pot before the river. Even though you know my strategy, you cannot 'win the hand' once it gets to the river in this exact situation.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 04:00:02 PM by Honeybadger » Logged
titaniumbean
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« Reply #354 on: November 16, 2012, 03:36:30 PM »

weeee was so close to answering that point. ty stu
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nirvana
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« Reply #355 on: November 16, 2012, 03:42:53 PM »

I'm gonna say this simply..and only once.

I totes get all Stu's points as I am way above average intelligence. However, this is one of those arguments/assertions that the more you understand the more you realise that you don't actually need to get it at all as a live poker player.

Temperament - so, how you deal with variance (whether or not you know what it is) may be the single biggest factor. This marks out a winning live tourny poker pro, and players like me that excel in this format, as you can then employ your arsenal of self awareness, empathy, courage & confidence to keep smacking variance in the face



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DaveShoelace
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« Reply #356 on: November 16, 2012, 04:09:44 PM »

This isn't a joking matter Barry

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titaniumbean
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« Reply #357 on: November 16, 2012, 04:14:23 PM »

I didn't think Barry was joking.


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Cf
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« Reply #358 on: November 16, 2012, 04:25:57 PM »

There is actually a mathematical justification for this (that sometimes it is the most +EV thing to do to turn down a small +EV spot). But I have to go now. I will, hopefully, write about it later.

Utility Theory.

A simple example is Deal or No Deal. If you're left with 1p/£250,000 and are offered £50,000 then it is correct for the vast majority of players to Deal. You're obviously sacrificing a HUGE amount of EV in this example but for a lot of people the £50,000 represents getting out of debt, paying towards the mortgage, etc. £250,000 would obviously be really nice but the £50,000 represents such huge utility to them that it's simply not worth risking losing it. The other thing about DOND of course is you only get one shot at the game, so you will never reach the long term.

Poker is obviously different. Your life time of playing can be viewed as one long game.

But I agree with HoneyBadger, sacrificing EV to lower variance to me is not only fine, but also correct in a large amount of cases.

If you're using poker to pay the bills, and your bank roll isn't that big, then the number 1 priority is to protect that bank roll and keep the money flowing in so that there's enough to go out towards bills. I'm plucking numbers from thin air here but let's say you were playing low variance line that gave you a 50% ROI and this was comfortably paying the bills then it will generally be correct to keep doing this. You could well play a higher variance game that gave you a 75% ROI. This could make you more money, but it also puts your bank roll at risk if you fall on the wrong side of variance.

If your motivation is to support the family and your current method is doing this then the extra money you could be making isn't enough to justify risking your bankroll so the correct thing to do is to take the lower variance line.
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Junior Senior
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« Reply #359 on: November 16, 2012, 04:28:06 PM »

Best thread on here for ages. All we need is Jase to bink the next deepstack whilst live updating and we got a BOB candidate
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