So simple yet so interesting

[TL900]

PokerStars Hand #90698662807: Tournament #654110283, $20+$5+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2012/12/13 17:19:52 WET [2012/12/13 12:19:52 ET]
Table '654110283 2' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: MD IACONI (1530 in chips)
Seat 2: flo444 (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: cheese9 (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: OnetimeJoker (1530 in chips)
Seat 5: gkamei09 (1470 in chips)
Seat 6: Mt.Spewmore (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: MeliSWE (1650 in chips)
Seat 8: Peeeedor (1480 in chips)
Seat 9: flopped6810 (1410 in chips)
Peeeedor: posts small blind 10
flopped6810: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mt.Spewmore [ ]
MD IACONI: folds
flo444: folds
cheese9: folds
OnetimeJoker: raises 40 to 60
gkamei09: folds
Mt.Spewmore: calls 60
MeliSWE: calls 60
Peeeedor: folds
flopped6810: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [ ]
flopped6810: checks
OnetimeJoker: bets 130
Mt.Spewmore:

OR is 18/14 over 300 77% cbet, other two are unknowns.

On the face of it the standard is to just call, but after some discussion and a little deeper thought I think you can make a decent case for all 3 options. Thoughts?

[outragous76]

well Im not calling pre to fold that board

call call call atm - obv run out depending

[muckthenuts]

Ok so fold, he's raised pre on level 1 with a solid stats and therefore most likely a strong range, then led into the pot 4 way. def not unreasonable.

Flat and evaluate turn would be the standard play.

Raise as some sort of backward pot control? Freezes him and takes the initiative away to stop him barreling us and putting us in a spot where we're left just guessing? Maybe not so likely at this early stage where he's much less likely to barrel down. What are your thoughts on raising?

[rfgqqabc]

If you fold here, fold pre surely? Like what do you actually want. You do have the fourth best starting hand.

I like flatting a lot. However, in the late night TKO 27 people go mental, so maybe raise can be considered. Will go to ponder.

[pleno1]

you can still try to set mine even if you want to fold no, so no, dont fold pre

i call flop, fold every turn, sometimes even raise some if i feel funky

[TL900]

call call call atm - obv run out depending

gl being good if he barrells 3 streets after betting into 3 people

Ok so fold, he's raised pre on level 1 with a solid stats and therefore most likely a strong range, then led into the pot 4 way. def not unreasonable.

Flat and evaluate turn would be the standard play.

Raise as some sort of backward pot control? Freezes him and takes the initiative away to stop him barreling us and putting us in a spot where we're left just guessing? Maybe not so likely at this early stage where he's much less likely to barrel down. What are your thoughts on raising?

i agree flat and eval turn pre discussion with some people was my standard and thats what I did in this hand.

Someone suggested that raising realises our equity in the hand and allows us to win the pot now a higher % than calling does. To quote :  "it's very tough to get another street of value anyway from worse...so picking up the pot right there is pretty good since we just said we likely don't get a ton of value on future streets anyway and bad cards can come off, spot can get tricky, etc". It makes alot of sense imo. We can also fold to any more aggression as we rarely have the best hand

edit : there was obv more explanation but im not gona post whole skype chat obv

[outragous76]

but by your same logic, if he has AA/KK and the run out is safe (ish) he will ck call river OOP, so we can just ck back if unsure, so v unlikley to face a river v bet from 1 pair hands IMO

[TL900]

he will def not c/call the river with AA/KK. I expect him to go for 3 streets with KK+ 2 pairs and sets depending on if someone calls behind me etc. In my mind he has a really strong range for cbetting this flop 4 way and JJ just doesnt do well vs it.

By calling we allow other people to call behind us and not really know where we are at all and end up folding every turn card.

By raising as i said we realise our equity and win the 370 in the middle a dec % of the time straight away which is 30% increase to our stack. If he calls or someone behind does anything then we can pretty safely shut down as im pretty confident he is just gona b/f AT otf and its pretty hard to get value from even the top of the range we are beating on later streets unless we get a super favourable run out. To summarise, he folds out all we beat and calls everything were beat by, which on the face of it sounds really bad technically but is preserving our chips and realising our equity now such a bad thing in tournaments? Obv in cash this is just a slam dunk call but MTT i think stack preservation is pretty huge here.

By folding we just show off our massive vagina and play pretty weak but as muckthenuts said, I don't think its really unreasonable considering his range and the ickiness of the stacks on later streets.

[SuuPRlim]

i agree with guy i think its too thin to bet 3 here with KK if you're the villain.

Not saying he wont do it ofc.

[youthnkzR]

he will def not c/call the river with AA/KK. I expect him to go for 3 streets with KK+ 2 pairs and sets depending on if someone calls behind me etc. In my mind he has a really strong range for cbetting this flop 4 way and JJ just doesnt do well vs it.

By calling we allow other people to call behind us and not really know where we are at all and end up folding every turn card.

By raising as i said we realise our equity and win the 370 in the middle a dec % of the time straight away which is 30% increase to our stack. If he calls or someone behind does anything then we can pretty safely shut down as im pretty confident he is just gona b/f AT otf and its pretty hard to get value from even the top of the range we are beating on later streets unless we get a super favourable run out. To summarise, he folds out all we beat and calls everything were beat by, which on the face of it sounds really bad technically but is preserving our chips and realising our equity now such a bad thing in tournaments? Obv in cash this is just a slam dunk call but MTT i think stack preservation is pretty huge here.

By folding we just show off our massive vagina and play pretty weak but as muckthenuts said, I don't think its really unreasonable considering his range and the ickiness of the stacks on later streets.

doubt your ever winning here.  Can only beat AT - IF he opens this. Good fold.

[titaniumbean]

what comp is this? 27TKO? or Hyper or what?

[youthnkzR]

what comp is this? 27TKO? or Hyper or what?

27tko i assume

[TL900]

confirmed TKO

[titaniumbean]

confirmed TKO

kinda makes me wanna go for the vagina flop fold option. though I totally understand how we should be able to rep such strength by raising and barreling. would just maybe rather have some bd equity rather than 2 outs to improve if need be.

[rfgqqabc]

130 into 370 in this tournament and i just can't see myself folding. We can always snap fold turn to any action.