Moving to cash

[aaron1867]

I have decided that I am moving towards playing cash in 2013 after realising that throughout 2013 I will not have much time to dedicate to MTT's that last 1, 2 and 3 days. I am now struggling to play the local one dayers (that are worth playing), because I am so busy.

I am not awesome with my BRM, like above, don't have time. But I will be playing 0.50/1, 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, maybe upto 2/5, but we don't get those games in Sheffield & perhaps maybe a little out of comfort zone stepping up at the moment.

Are there any tips and players here to give advice about moving to cash or just playing, cash, etc. I do play cash now and again, but not really "bread and butter" stuff for me to be fair. I am still reeling from a poorly played hand from months ago.

At this point, hoping to play some MTT's, but costs are so big for me, so going to dedicate poker this year to playing cash.

[jgcblack]

In all seriousness I would advocate playing some online microstakes cash games in order to play more 100bb+ poker and get better at folding.

Once you've played 50k hands on zoom/ rush/ fast poker or whatever alternative as a minimum at each level a nd being a winner


When you get to 50nl and youre winning. Then and only then go out to the live pokers again.  Then when to do go you, enjoy all the free money that is still circling around the each live game.

[Rod]

In all seriousness I would advocate playing some online microstakes cash games in order to play more 100bb+ poker and get better at folding.

Once you've played 50k hands on zoom/ rush/ fast poker or whatever alternative as a minimum at each level a nd being a winner


When you get to 50nl and youre winning. Then and only then go out to the live pokers again.  Then when to do go you, enjoy all the free money that is still circling around the each live game.

In your opinion what is a good rate at BB/100 in ms zoom poker?

[jgcblack]

Well I've played 200k hands and even with the occassional mistake for a stack im still winning at 1bb/100.  Which I'm 'guessing' means my true winrrate now is going to be closer to 3/4bb per 100.  However I am making some calls and mainly value bets that most of the players in my pool never make.  Sometimes they're cuts but normally not.

I'll double check my stats later but the last 50k of my 200kare at a much higher rate than before.

[shipitonetime]

In all seriousness I would advocate playing some online microstakes cash games in order to play more 100bb+ poker and get better at folding.

Once you've played 50k hands on zoom/ rush/ fast poker or whatever alternative as a minimum at each level a nd being a winner


When you get to 50nl and youre winning. Then and only then go out to the live pokers again.  Then when to do go you, enjoy all the free money that is still circling around the each live game.

@jgcBlack have you achieved this yet?

[kinboshi]

Bankroll management and game selection is key if you're playing with the sole purpose of making money.

[Rod]

Well I've played 200k hands and even with the occassional mistake for a stack im still winning at 1bb/100.  Which I'm 'guessing' means my true winrrate now is going to be closer to 3/4bb per 100.  However I am making some calls and mainly value bets that most of the players in my pool never make.  Sometimes they're cuts but normally not.

I'll double check my stats later but the last 50k of my 200kare at a much higher rate than before.

Why is it lower than your true win rate?

Is is down to the number of hands you play? Reading your diary you are a machine in volume.

[jgcblack]

In all seriousness I would advocate playing some online microstakes cash games in order to play more 100bb+ poker and get better at folding.

Once you've played 50k hands on zoom/ rush/ fast poker or whatever alternative as a minimum at each level a nd being a winner


When you get to 50nl and youre winning. Then and only then go out to the live pokers again.  Then when to do go you, enjoy all the free money that is still circling around the each live game.

@jgcBlack have you achieved this yet?

No, its not easy.

I've had to change my whole personality and approach to the game.  It has become more than a game to me now, and although I still slip up here and there I am much more disciplined, aware, intelligent with my choices and playing as good as I ever have.

I will be moving up to 25nl shorty, and genuinely believe I have a really good shot at moving straight through if I keep playing as I am now.  I have Justinsayne with me for a few days, and although he's a spewtard at times, Pleno tells me he's as good as anyone with the maths, theory and GTO strategies, so hoping to really get some great insights and appreciation from him.

I will be aiming for beating 100nl in 1 years time.  IF I am, IF i'm at or close to 200nl I will then have the 'decision'.


In the meantime, I have no doubt in my mind I will crush live cash for 5 figs next year.

[shipitonetime]

In all seriousness I would advocate playing some online microstakes cash games in order to play more 100bb+ poker and get better at folding.

Once you've played 50k hands on zoom/ rush/ fast poker or whatever alternative as a minimum at each level a nd being a winner


When you get to 50nl and youre winning. Then and only then go out to the live pokers again.  Then when to do go you, enjoy all the free money that is still circling around the each live game.

@jgcBlack have you achieved this yet?

No, its not easy.

I've had to change my whole personality and approach to the game.  It has become more than a game to me now, and although I still slip up here and there I am much more disciplined, aware, intelligent with my choices and playing as good as I ever have.

I will be moving up to 25nl shorty, and genuinely believe I have a really good shot at moving straight through if I keep playing as I am now.  I have Justinsayne with me for a few days, and although he's a spewtard at times, Pleno tells me he's as good as anyone with the maths, theory and GTO strategies, so hoping to really get some great insights and appreciation from him.

I will be aiming for beating 100nl in 1 years time.  IF I am, IF i'm at or close to 200nl I will then have the 'decision'.


In the meantime, I have no doubt in my mind I will crush live cash for 5 figs next year.

Ok gl with it. Theres a couple regs on 2p2 who have managed to move up from as low as 10nl to beating 400nl by the end of this yr. So anything is possible if you put in the effort.

[Gemini Kings]

Bankroll management and game selection is key if you're playing with the sole purpose of making money.

So true. Tournaments are renowned for high variance but sit in the wrong cash game and it is as near to pure gambling as possible and the outcome will largely be down to luck.

To make money live you need an active table but not suicidally so.

You also need to keep your stack deep enough to maintain fold equity and prevent multi way pots with your big pairs.

[jgcblack]

Bankroll management and game selection is key if you're playing with the sole purpose of making money.

So true. Tournaments are renowned for high variance but sit in the wrong cash game and it is as near to pure gambling as possible and the outcome will largely be down to luck.

To make money live you need an active table but not suicidally so.

You also need to keep your stack deep enough to maintain fold equity and prevent multi way pots with your big pairs.

NO NO NO!

(don't mean it to sound rude... but this thinking, is wrong!)

You don't need to be afraid and worried with your big pairs.  They are good hands, and you want to win money with good hands.  But you need to be able to just bin them when someone check raises or does something else equally 'strong'.  They are one pair.

I'd happily take AA multiway and bet, bet, bet almost any runout... people aren't normally going to call, call, call with their sets/ two purrs....  So you only get called by one pair hands, and AA is the best one = we win.




Clearly, if you have the opportunity and stack depth to get some money in preflop with a big pair, then do so.  But making it £220 over a couple of opens of £10 to ensure 'they don't call with A2o' is just incorrect thinking.
You're using one line of logic to justify doing something that won't ensure the outcome you require.




TO MAKE MONEY LIVE - we find Lil'daves post on my blog from January

Lil'Dave.. I would like to vote that you list your 'top ten' simple rules of poker!

I'll give you 5

5) Don't expect anyone to do anything until you have at least SOME info on them, if you have no info on someone in a live setting just assign them "default" tendencies and try to takie optimal vacuum lines vs them (e.g. if you have a hunch they might be 4betting light, but don't have anyway to know they are capable, assume they are not capable and fold J9o ,don't call to float and rep AK etc!)

4) When you have a good hand vs >semi competant live opponents, just bet for value don't do anything fancy

3) Don't make spazzy moves without EXTREMELY good reason as often the "long term" benefit of the bluff is null and void because the same people aren't there and generic live people won't think "he's has a tendancy to bluff in 3bet pots when he's checked the turn or whatever" they'll think "he's a bluffer" and your small bluffs in different spots will get little to no respect. You can get an "aggro" repuation in live poker just by raising 1 - 2 times an orbit and c-betting a high frequency no need to run a 500bb multi-street bluff hardly ever

2) Always bet big when you can.

1) Look at the guy your playing, and ask yourself these questions, 1) Why Is Here? 2) What does he want from being here? and 3) What kind of personality does he have? This should lead you to much much better vacuum decisions and then you won't be purely guessing at people's behavioral tendencies which no offence seems to be what you're doing in every PHA post so far

GL with the diary, I will be railing

Oh one thing you've mentioned about is how you "come across as a bit of a dick" at the table? Did I read that right? Why is it you think that? If that's the case I'd defo look to work on that as good table manner is one of the most important things to successful live play and it's completely free. 

Add to it some pleno wisdom.

Bet with top pair and other good hands and fold when they raise.

THIS IS HOW YOU WIN IN LIVE POKERS!

[jgcblack]

Cue Alex Goulder please.

[Gemini Kings]

Bankroll management and game selection is key if you're playing with the sole purpose of making money.

So true. Tournaments are renowned for high variance but sit in the wrong cash game and it is as near to pure gambling as possible and the outcome will largely be down to luck.

To make money live you need an active table but not suicidally so.

You also need to keep your stack deep enough to maintain fold equity and prevent multi way pots with your big pairs.

NO NO NO!

(don't mean it to sound rude... but this thinking, is wrong!)

You don't need to be afraid and worried with your big pairs.  They are good hands, and you want to win money with good hands.  But you need to be able to just bin them when someone check raises or does something else equally 'strong'.  They are one pair.

I'd happily take AA multiway and bet, bet, bet almost any runout... people aren't normally going to call, call, call with their sets/ two purrs....  So you only get called by one pair hands, and AA is the best one = we win.




Clearly, if you have the opportunity and stack depth to get some money in preflop with a big pair, then do so.  But making it £220 over a couple of opens of £10 to ensure 'they don't call with A2o' is just incorrect thinking.
You're using one line of logic to justify doing something that won't ensure the outcome you require.

NO NO NO................. you don't sound rude John just delusional if you can read all of the above in my post.

You are clearly still learning so maybe I should have spelled it out but I didn't want to write war and peace so I generalised in terms of Game selection and stack size.

Fold equity is necessary in some games where it plays very loose and usually multi way. If you are are short stacked you have none.

I played in such a game recently. It was 1/2 NLH with a £500 max sit down and involved 4 or 5 players who were playing well below their bank roll limits so played very loose. A £10 to £25 pre flop raise resulted in 4 or 5 callers and sometimes more. Are you telling me you that you are happy to take AA or KK 5 way to the flop.

My post advised that you should have a sufficiently large enough stack to 3 bet big enough to take the pot down or at least limit the number of callers seeing the flop (in a very loose game, I will repeat IN A VERY LOOSE GAME)

Different tables play differently and require different tactics to play optimally.

Where does my post state that you should shove £220 over a £10 raise to prevent a call from A,2. Or state that I am afraid of big pairs?

I can give you an example to prevent you inventing scenarios as you did in your reply.

while playing in the game I described above I saw multiway pots where 4, 5 or 6 players were calling large preflop raises. I am under the gun with KK. Knowing that a raise of £15 to £20 would result in several callers and a family pot I limped in for £2. Like clockwork the player to my left raised to £20 and got two callers. The pot is now £65. Big enough for me to take it down preflop so I shoved all in. My error was allowing my stack to fall to £140 prior to this hand. All 3 players called. I was all in so had no more control of the hand. Betting continued and it went to showdown. I hit a set but still lost.

Although this game was hyper loose and may not be typical, I have played in many such games so they are by no means rare. Now, if I had maintained a larger stack I would have had greater fold equity in this hyper loose game and would probably have won the pot pre flop which is preferable to getting three callers in a pot in which I have no further control.

Flawed thinking?

I am profitable in live cash so I will continue with my flawed thinking because it works.

Maybe some day I'll get to watch you "crush live cash"


Ps There are many other reasons why it is good to play deep stacked, one is to stack off players who over value big pairs.

[tight4better]

inb4 goulder

[kinboshi]

I'd happily take AA multiway and bet, bet, bet almost any runout... people aren't normally going to call, call, call with their sets/ two purrs....  So you only get called by one pair hands, and AA is the best one = we win.