Unlucky or Poor play ?

[maccer2613]

Unfortunately I think I know the answer and its not the first one !

Hand from £25k guaranteed online on IPN from last night. We are about 10/36 (already ITM) average chips are about 120k and going along nicely - until this !

I'm interested in opinions on how I should/could of played it ? - Go easy as first time poster !

***** Hand 2989347341 *****
4000.00/8000.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit)
Hand started: 20 January 2013 23:19:29 GMT
€25,000 WEEKLY GTD (Real/Tournament)
Seat 1: ivonkq (492288.00)
Seat 2: stevemac13 (209862.00)
Seat 3: yourFaith (139702.00)
Seat 4: SpookyMan (237944.00)
Seat 5: guzi68 (164653.00)
Seat 6: nlsbrn (226905.00)
Seat 7: MartiCAMM (156702.00)
Seat 8: -appell- (93822.00)
Seat 9: robinho887 (156162.00)
Seat 10: elol (137058.00)
SpookyMan is Dealer
ivonkq post Ante 800.00
stevemac13 post Ante 800.00
yourFaith post Ante 800.00
SpookyMan post Ante 800.00
guzi68 post Ante 800.00
nlsbrn post Ante 800.00
MartiCAMM post Ante 800.00
-appell- post Ante 800.00
robinho887 post Ante 800.00
elol post Ante 800.00
guzi68 post SB 4000.00
nlsbrn post BB 8000.00
** Deal **
ivonkq [N/A, N/A]
stevemac13 [, ]
yourFaith [N/A, N/A]
SpookyMan [N/A, N/A]
guzi68 [N/A, N/A]
nlsbrn [N/A, N/A]
MartiCAMM [N/A, N/A]
-appell- [N/A, N/A]
robinho887 [N/A, N/A]
elol [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
MartiCAMM Fold
-appell- Fold
robinho887 Fold
elol Fold
ivonkq Fold
stevemac13 Raise to 16000.00
yourFaith Fold
SpookyMan Call 16000.00
guzi68 Fold
nlsbrn Fold
*** Flop(Board): *** : [, , ]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
stevemac13 Check
SpookyMan Bet 26000.00
stevemac13 Call 26000.00
*** Turn(Board): *** : [, , , ]
*** Bet Round 3 ***
stevemac13 All-in 167062.00
SpookyMan Call 167062.00
*** River(Board): *** : [, , , , ]
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 438124.00
stevemac13 [, ] Two pair kings and nines Win: 0.00
SpookyMan [, ] Full house Win: 438124.00
Hand ended: 20 January 2013 23:20:27 GMT

[outragous76]

Not sure it's that bad

[maccer2613]

I was obviously disappointed with the outcome as much as anything TBH. I didn't think he was that strong on the flop and didn't put him on a K as I didn't think he would bet it at that stage of the tourney. I was trying to get as much value as I could but am now thinking I should of re raised the flop and been happy to take it down there and then ?

[PutYouOnAK/AQ]

Dislike, never getting called by worse imo.

bet flop, bet turn fold to turn raise, if calls turn, check fold river.

[SuuPRlim]

Hello, Welcome thanks for posting

I dont like the hand. Obviously pre-flop is totally stndard but I think you should bet the flop and go from there. Not only does this make the hand way easier to play, you just win the pot there and then quite often but you also get him to fold stuff like AJ, QJ and hand like that which have no way of continuing on this board, but have actually quite good equity against your hand here. If it goes chk/chk and he turns a Q with QJ, we've basically GIVEN him the pot.

It's just a very easy way to play the hand, and you dont have to play guessing game.

I was obviously disappointed with the outcome as much as anything TBH. I didn't think he was that strong on the flop and didn't put him on a K as I didn't think he would bet it at that stage of the tourney. I was trying to get as much value as I could but am now thinking I should of re raised the flop and been happy to take it down there and then ?

As played I think the turn shove is 100% a mistake. What you're effectively doing is bluffing, it's very difficult for you to get called by worse, and everything you make fold you are beating anyways. Basically you've found the one way to put the most money in the pot possible against his good hands.

Chk/Raising the flop is the same as going all in on the turn, you're putting yourself in a situation where only better hands will call and worse hands will fold - you do get SOME value that he might bet the flop with nothing and fold, and you earn an additional bet from him, but the only way to get any "value" here is to lead the flop, imo.

Also, not putting him on a King is a mistake also, agreed OTF he likely does not have a KING but it's perfectly possible that he does, he would call pre-flop with KQ/KJ/KTs (maybe even some worse suited Kings) or even possibly he'd just call AK offsuit preflop as well (hard to say without knowing more about him) and it's very reasonable to assume if he DID have any of those Kx hands he would bet the flop with them, so deciding hee doesn't have a king when he's played the hand in the same manner he would do with a King can only get you into trouble.

Hope this helps, welcome to blonde

David

[cambridgealex]

Everything David says is correct.

Welcome to Blonde

[maccer2613]

Thanks Dave/Alex

I knew I should of bet the flop to be honest - as you say take it down there and then and be happy with the pot at that point.

If I check/raise the flop though then surely I would get hands like 77,66,88 to fold a lot of the time and if he re raises all in I can still fold and get away from it ? - I know where I am then ?

Surely most times he has a K he doesn't bet the flop?

thanks for taking the time to reply

steve

[Yian]

Being as you did check call the flop, I'm not sure why you didn't check call the turn also. You're only getting called by hands that beat you when you go all in there.

[outragous76]

I bet call (obv)

BUT - i dont hate the way he plays the hand. The kid never has a K, nor TT+ and therefore Im happy with OP's line.

The fact he shoves a house says quite a lot!

Unlucky IMO

[cambridgealex]

Thanks Dave/Alex

I knew I should of bet the flop to be honest - as you say take it down there and then and be happy with the pot at that point.

If I check/raise the flop though then surely I would get hands like 77,66,88 to fold a lot of the time and if he re raises all in I can still fold and get away from it ? - I know where I am then ?

Surely most times he has a K he doesn't bet the flop?

thanks for taking the time to reply

steve

But you have 99, so are beating 66-88, infact they only have 9% equity vs your hand on the flop. So why do you want to make him fold? We want to keep him in with these hands. We're more interested in making him fold AJ for example, which has more like 25% equity vs our 99 (3 ACES, and 3 JACKS = 6 outs = ~25%)

so that's why we're happy to bet the flop and make him fold these hands (of which there a loads of combinations of - JT, QJ, AT etc)

Some people check a King on the flop, but lots of people also bet it. I for example would almost always bet a king here, because when people raise preflop and check this flop, its rare that they have nothing and just check fold. If they had JT for example you'd expect them to continuation bet such a dry board. So when people check they usually have something half decent, like Ace high, or a pocket pair. So we bet with a KING because they're unlikely to be check folding.

[cambridgealex]

I bet call (obv)

BUT - i dont hate the way he plays the hand. The kid never has a K, nor TT+ and therefore Im happy with OP's line.

The fact he shoves a house says quite a lot!

Unlucky IMO

think you've misread HH, OP donk shoves turn.

(donk isnt a nasty word in this context btw maccer, its a term for when you upset the flow of the hand by betting into the aggressor - so called because it is often a donkey thing to do ).

So because he's bet the flop, and you've called, he has the betting lead, and you should usually check to him on the turn because of this. Since you bet first, this is called a donk-bet.

[outragous76]

I bet call (obv)

BUT - i dont hate the way he plays the hand. The kid never has a K, nor TT+ and therefore Im happy with OP's line.

The fact he shoves a house says quite a lot!

Unlucky IMO

think you've misread HH, OP donk shoves turn.

(donk isnt a nasty word in this context btw maccer, its a term for when you upset the flow of the hand by betting into the aggressor - so called because it is often a donkey thing to do ).

So because he's bet the flop, and you've called, he has the betting lead, and you should usually check to him on the turn because of this. Since you bet first, this is called a donk-bet.

I havent - but you see this all the time at lower stakes. Donks flop (with a hand exactly like he has), panicks on the turn and shoves (a hand exactly like he has got [excl fact he fills up])

I obv think its terrible by villain, but you see this alot.

Im not folding 99 here on the basis he might have a K - because I dont think he donk leads a K on flop that often - more likley to c/r flop

Thefore his hand is more like 44-99 or bluffs. If he has a K god bless him, if he does we win this hand alot!

Lets say the turn comes  a 2. I sure villain still donk shoves his 77 here

[maccer2613]

I understand what you're saying about only being called by better and totally agree with you when you see the hand played out but how often will they have a better hand in that scenario ? If I check the turn and they check behind with Ax then I'm giving them a free card? Also I agree that if it come a low card they will call an all in with a worse pair a lot of the time.

steve

[cambridgealex]

Still think you've misread it

Hero check/calls flop
Hero donk shoves turn.

[outragous76]

Still think you've misread it

Hero check/calls flop
Hero donk shoves turn.

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

missed first check! yeah mis read it!

^^^^^^^^^^what they said!