500 zoom interesting spot

[pleno1]

obv fish limping in and reg iso'n

Thoughts?

PokerStars Zoom Hand #93622706153:  Hold'em No Limit ($2.50/$5.00) - 2013/02/06 23:16:36 CET [2013/02/06 17:16:36 ET]
Table 'Lambda Velorum' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ExB1983 ($1003.37 in chips)
Seat 2: pads1161 ($575.56 in chips)
Seat 3: PrsLee ($1559.24 in chips)
Seat 4: iznak ($175.77 in chips)
Seat 5: lafumeta13 ($491.21 in chips)
Seat 6: Claudjuh79 ($606.49 in chips)
pads1161: posts small blind $2.50
PrsLee: posts big blind $5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pads1161 [ ]
iznak: folds
lafumeta13: calls $5
Claudjuh79: folds
ExB1983: raises $15 to $20
pads1161: calls $17.50
PrsLee: folds
lafumeta13: calls $15
*** FLOP *** [ ]
pads1161: checks
lafumeta13: checks
ExB1983: bets $40
pads1161: calls $40
lafumeta13: calls $40
*** TURN *** [ ] []
pads1161: checks
lafumeta13: checks
ExB1983: bets $136.65
pads1161: calls $136.65
lafumeta13: folds
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
pads1161: ?

[pleno1]

think this is super interesting btw.

[jgcblack]

think this is super interesting btw.

Can I ask what the thought/ plan was at each stage??

[TL900]

you think he ever folds better?

[Ironside]

you think he ever folds better?

i am not sure he calls much worse either

i think i check call and fml if he turns up with aces or full house

[jgcblack]

you think he ever folds better?

i am not sure he calls much worse either

i think i check call and fml if he turns up with aces or full house

It's so hard to work out what Pat thinks sometimes.. but to me.. this line looks pretty fos.  So I'd be expecting to get looked up by Kx a lot... potentially worse.

gameflow/ dynamics/ reads obv..  zoom doesn't mean readless all the time..

I don't like it as a bluff tho... why would we bluff?

[Ironside]

this is zoom havent played it in a while but regs nut peddle only play big hands pre and they fold small pairs etc pre

[TL900]

Ii realise we can get called by worse. I was just wondering if Pat thought he ever gets him to fold AK

[skolsuper]

think this is super interesting btw.

Is it super interesting because of the missed 3bet pre or the missed flop check-raise?

As played I would check river, let villain go for thin value or we might even induce a bluff, don't think there's much he would call a shove with that he wouldn't check back.

[jgcblack]

think this is super interesting btw.

Is it super interesting because of the missed 3bet pre or the missed flop check-raise?

As played I would check river, let villain go for thin value or we might even induce a bluff, don't think there's much he would call a shove with that he wouldn't check back.

This seems really logical, linear, sensible thinking...

How does your view change if your the villain in the hand and you see this massive donk i
Riverbet, what would be your calling range?

[SuuPRlim]

Yh 3betting seems better than calling preflop, but then i guess we freeze the weaker player out of the pot and iso ourselves OOP against the reg, I imagine he's iso'ing a range that KQ (even ofsuit) is doing pretty well against so i guess calling might be better actually

I guess options are to chk/call or lead, cant see chk/folding being viable at all. Don't really know, I think he's going to Vbet worse and bluff sometimes so ... check call?

[Honeybadger]

Either 3betting or flatting is fine preflop. Flatting keeps the presumed weak player in the pot which is good. On the other hand offsuit broadways don't play especially great multiway which is an argument for 3betting. Doesn't really matter either way in the end IMO.

Everything seems good up to the river. I like the c/c flop c/c turn line, since it is consistent with the plan of keeping the weak player in the pot. Even though the weak player has folded the turn, I'd still check-call now rather than getting clever and donking (which I presume is what you are thinking about?). It maximises against his bluffs etc. If he checks back with AK/KJ/KT/AQ then sigh, but these are the only realistic value hands that he can have that you beat.... and he might go for thin value with some of these anyway once you check.

It's not like you are smashing his range if he decides to put more money in the pot on the river since he has plenty of hands that beat you - especially with the BDFD having arrived, assuming he is randomising his turn barrels through equity. Therefore I'd prefer to keep as many bluffs in his range as possible. It is not exactly a wonderful spot once he bets the river though, since actually you merely have a top of the range bluff catcher (top of the range because you DO beat some of his value hands provided he value bets fairly aggressively).

[pleno1]

Wow, I think 3betting is bad and calling is absolutely the only option, not only do we do v good vs the fish range, but the reg will be iso raising really wide here so we do well too, + hand plays well in a multi way pot.

On the paired board and vs turn sizing, I think I look ridicuously strong actually, so don't see us getting barrelled on the river as a bluff very often.

It's weird because people I've spoken too, have said such a variety of different responses.

- shove river as bluff
- shove river as value
- c/f river

[outragous76]

if you have a specific read that it could be an ISO, then 3b IP playing zoom is fine. 3b OOP would be bad

Shoving river is lovely in this spot as the missed clubs gives him reason to call ALL his 1 pair hands. I mean its fairly cold if he wakes up with the 1 pair that beats you.

The other option of course is letting him continue to barrell (if you believe he will), and snapping him off.

The problem with readless games like zoom is you have no real reason to go with either of the above, and therefore its a feel thing on timing, any reads stats you might have.

My personal line here is shove for value and if he has AA god bless him. The only reason I dont like shove for value is we arent letting him bluff off his missed draw range which could be huge on this texture board with his ISo range pre (TJ any cc type hands)

[Honeybadger]

Wow, I think 3betting is bad and calling is absolutely the only option, not only do we do v good vs the fish range, but the reg will be iso raising really wide here so we do well too, + hand plays well in a multi way pot.

I personally don't think KQo plays all that well in a MW pot, but whatever... flatting keeps the weak player in the hand which is great.

On the paired board and vs turn sizing, I think I look ridicuously strong actually, so don't see us getting barrelled on the river as a bluff very often.

It's weird because people I've spoken too, have said such a variety of different responses.

- shove river as bluff
- shove river as value
- c/f river

If your gameflow read is that he is not bluffing the river much at all (since you look so strong), and rarely value betting worse, then it is a simple check-fold, right?

Despite you looking strong, it is not a great spot to try to fold out better since the only hand you might realistically be able to bluff out is specifically AA, and this forms such a small subset of the hands that beat you...

If your read on his read (if that makes sense) is correct then check and expect it to be checked back with you winning a very large amount of the time.

All this is based on your assumption that you look insanely strong after your turn call. If that is not true then things change...