Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1

[david3103]

Villain hasn't been at table long but is clearly decent. He sat with the max and would have sat with more if allowed. Starts hand with c£200

He opens to £5 which is called in one spot and I raise  £14 from late position playing c £450

Flop  checked to me, I bet £22
Both call
Turn  checked to me, I bet £40, villain calls, other guy folds.
River 
He leads for £105 with not much back.....

[david3103]

hand at the Vic, villain is unknown but says he's up from Southampton with mates on a road trip.

[david3103]

Like £24 pre. You want to be in a spot where you can at least win the pot pre, and it may not be worth while 3bing here in order to keep any fish in.

If its one of the two people i think (Howden/Cristo) snap fold vs Howden and lol at Cristo, ask him how big his current ds is and call, hes raging atm and def would fire with something ridiculous here. Its not even a size he could vb for, he reads hands too well/gives his opponents too little respect to fire 105 for value although i can imagine you would garner a degree of respect from him if you've spoke. So many live tells too

Maybe not 24 but I agree, think the 3 bet (especially the size) is a little fps'y at this game, lets take a flop. and LOL at the rest of your post

24>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>14 though

If we cant win the pot pre we effectively pay £9 to take a bloated pot ip with initiative, which doesnt sound bad but we are getting 4b bluffed vs (Cristo) and can see a flop ip. At least make him consider folding. Abso fine if we are isoing a weaker opponent when luke(Keylek)/howden/cristo are in the blinds but not this spot imo.

3b/call both fine pre could even argue a fold if he is particularly early. So nice 200bb deep ip tho.

edit: sigh and fold, dont beat anything really, would be really surprised to see a bluff

You posted simultaneously with my post saying hand was at the Vic. Villain unknown but think early 20s, fancies his chances, generally active pre. He was button to my straddle and raised 100% of my straddles that reached him un raised.

[Keylek]

Like £24 pre. You want to be in a spot where you can at least win the pot pre, and it may not be worth while 3bing here in order to keep any fish in.

If its one of the two people i think (Howden/Cristo) snap fold vs Howden and lol at Cristo, ask him how big his current ds is and call, hes raging atm and def would fire with something ridiculous here. Its not even a size he could vb for, he reads hands too well/gives his opponents too little respect to fire 105 for value although i can imagine you would garner a degree of respect from him if you've spoke. So many live tells too

Maybe not 24 but I agree, think the 3 bet (especially the size) is a little fps'y at this game, lets take a flop. and LOL at the rest of your post

24>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>14 though

If we cant win the pot pre we effectively pay £9 to take a bloated pot ip with initiative, which doesnt sound bad but we are getting 4b bluffed vs (Cristo) and can see a flop ip. At least make him consider folding. Abso fine if we are isoing a weaker opponent when luke(Keylek)/howden/cristo are in the blinds but not this spot imo.

3b/call both fine pre could even argue a fold if he is particularly early. So nice 200bb deep ip tho.

edit: sigh and fold, dont beat anything really, would be really surprised to see a bluff

You posted simultaneously with my post saying hand was at the Vic. Villain unknown but think early 20s, fancies his chances, generally active pre. He was button to my straddle and raised 100% of my straddles that reached him un raised.

.

Oh you're right, sorry dave. Therefore I would fold unless I'm just absolutely sure he is bluffing.... What is he turning into a bluff though? And preflop opinion still stands.

[rfgqqabc]

I think I size flop and turn a lot bigger, like £26/68

OTT as played like £58?

[david3103]

I think I size flop and turn a lot bigger, like £26/68

OTT as played like £58?

£14 pre seemed to be effective on the table, but I take the point. £24 probably wins pre vs most of his range.
Why £26 on flop and then £68 on turn though?
Are we betting for value or bluffing? I was pretty certain it was for value right up to the river...

On the river I couldn't imagine a hand that raise called pre, ck called flop and turn that then became a bluff unless it was a bluff from the start, which felt unlikely oop anfpd not against John Black...
Although.... I knew he reminded me of someone...

Still folding? - I did btw, fold that is.

[rfgqqabc]

I think I size flop and turn a lot bigger, like £26/68

OTT as played like £58?

£14 pre seemed to be effective on the table, but I take the point. £24 probably wins pre vs most of his range.
Why £26 on flop and then £68 on turn though?
Are we betting for value or bluffing? I was pretty certain it was for value right up to the river...

On the river I couldn't imagine a hand that raise called pre, ck called flop and turn that then became a bluff unless it was a bluff from the start, which felt unlikely oop anfpd not against John Black...
Although.... I knew he reminded me of someone...

Still folding? - I did btw, fold that is.

Flop touch bigger for value, this in turn helps by compounding pot size on the turn and then river, meaning it is easier to get the gold in.
£4 more on the flop makes it 120 in the pot on the turn, with ~160 back (effective) meaning its easier to get in with a ~65/95 turn/river size on favourable run outs. Not a problem here though.

£40 gives him the price with JT/QT if he can get a touch of value if he gets there.

I'd be interested on peoples thoughts on betting flop to a size like 34 because the callers may have inelastic calling ranges, (Jx might not fold for 40, opponent dependent but no need to bet closer to half pot for balance purposes (which may be a factor in the G on occasion)

[SuuPRlim]

I agree i'd 3bet bigger. would fold now, i've paid many of these bets off in live poker games during my life and really wish i'd folded them all.

[jgcblack]

having played in these specific games a lot.

Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14.

Would treat this hand as a two street hand and bet 2/3 flop and 3/4-5/6 pot Ott, then check back river.

with his line and this runout I expect to be beat >98% time in these games. He will show you the bluff, so when you fold and dont see anything, he just had As , 10J, etc...

[pleno1]

having played in these specific games a lot.

Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14.

please expand.

[david3103]

having played in these specific games a lot.

Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14.

please expand.

[Doobs]

having played in these specific games a lot.

Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14.

please expand.

Pls don't, it is likely to hurt.

[sedds]

I prefer flatting for a few reasons; when you 3bet you're going to get flatted alot by the first guy which means the second guy will come along. The type of hands they call with all will have good equity vs you which isn't great now that the stack to pot ratio is bloated. When you flat you have a much better chance of getting them off hands postflop with money behind - forcing them to make a larger equity errors. Squeezing postflop with some equity is always going to get more respect than pre. Plus J9 is lovely and you can hit a ton of flops and not get 4bet

[david3103]

But flatting means we only get a good chance of winning the pot when we hit it...

[sedds]

Not really, you get checked to sometimes, you can bluff raise stuff that isn't good enough to call - weaker pairs/gutshots/air and you can hit draws/nice hands. When you flat you get alot more information on the flop about your opponents likely hand strengths. You are more able to gauge bet sizings/timings + board texture and decide whether your image is good enough to represent something stronger or whether you have implied odds or to take a free card etc. If you 3bet, you  lose relative position - the hand will likely get checked to whether they have hit or not and you will have a more difficult time folding out pairs etc.

I'm not saying 3betting isn't profitable though, alot of the time people will flat and just fold flops. Having the initiative is a bit easier but its also overrated, particularly with more money behind.